12-string set-up blues - FRETS.NET2024-03-29T00:35:58Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/12string-setup-blues?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A18158&feed=yes&xn_auth=noNobody can deny it, Magnus. P…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-30:2177249:Comment:186312009-08-30T22:57:56.676ZAntonio Cotichinihttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/AntonioCotichini158
Nobody can deny it, Magnus. Physics is Physics. What come in my mind now, about this tread, is the magnitude of the phenomenons we're talking about. I'll try to express my thought.<br />
A guitar, is theory an reality. On theory it should be stiff as rock and don't even need compensations of whatever sort. Practically we have so much variability to front, given by the nature of materials and precision of work, that it's always a big compromise. And these variabilities still vary during the time and…
Nobody can deny it, Magnus. Physics is Physics. What come in my mind now, about this tread, is the magnitude of the phenomenons we're talking about. I'll try to express my thought.<br />
A guitar, is theory an reality. On theory it should be stiff as rock and don't even need compensations of whatever sort. Practically we have so much variability to front, given by the nature of materials and precision of work, that it's always a big compromise. And these variabilities still vary during the time and the changes of the environmental conditions.<br />
In other words, if the changes we have on the length of a string by fretting, or the amount of angle of a bridge by vibrating is so big to determine an audible difference in sound or a difficulty on playing, there we must do something. Otherwise, if we need to measure it with some electronic device, IMO, we must accept nature and go on playing.<br />
Perfection is not human.<br />
Antonio And there is more....
http:/…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-30:2177249:Comment:186302009-08-30T21:37:43.934ZMagnus Hultinhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MagnusHultin
And there is more....<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor3.htm">http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor3.htm</a><br />
<br />
After reading this about the induced "stiffness feeling" added by the JLD, I suspect the the guitar may need a modified intonation in the saddlebone. On a non JLD guitar, when a string is fretted, the bridge and top tilts slightly, reducing the amount of extra string tension added by the fretting.<br />
<br />
With a JLD, this tilting is, if not removed, at least reduced. The…
And there is more....<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor3.htm">http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor3.htm</a><br />
<br />
After reading this about the induced "stiffness feeling" added by the JLD, I suspect the the guitar may need a modified intonation in the saddlebone. On a non JLD guitar, when a string is fretted, the bridge and top tilts slightly, reducing the amount of extra string tension added by the fretting.<br />
<br />
With a JLD, this tilting is, if not removed, at least reduced. The result should be increased tension in the fretted string, which need compensation in the saddlebone.<br />
<br />
Any thoughts on this?<br />
<br />
/Magnus Found this thoughtful and inf…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-30:2177249:Comment:186282009-08-30T19:55:36.850ZMagnus Hultinhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MagnusHultin
Found this thoughtful and informative discussion at MIMF, couldn´t resist sharing it.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor.htm">http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor.htm</a>
Found this thoughtful and informative discussion at MIMF, couldn´t resist sharing it.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor.htm">http://www.mimf.com/library/bridge_doctor.htm</a> Since the repair/modification…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-22:2177249:Comment:183712009-08-22T21:04:18.262ZEd Taubliebhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/EdTaublieb
Since the repair/modifications have been done and the owner is happy with the results I am somewhat "beating a dead horse"<br />
<br />
What I was surprised about was no one mentioned the neck angle changing technique that I associate with Jon Lundberg. That is separating the back from the sides from the heel to the sholders, then increasing the neck angle slighty, reglue and trim the excess back and finally rei-glue the binding.<br />
<br />
Anyone have any thoughts on doing this on a reletivey inexpensive (say worth…
Since the repair/modifications have been done and the owner is happy with the results I am somewhat "beating a dead horse"<br />
<br />
What I was surprised about was no one mentioned the neck angle changing technique that I associate with Jon Lundberg. That is separating the back from the sides from the heel to the sholders, then increasing the neck angle slighty, reglue and trim the excess back and finally rei-glue the binding.<br />
<br />
Anyone have any thoughts on doing this on a reletivey inexpensive (say worth under $500.) guitar ?<br />
Ed Taublieb And I realise now that I put…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-21:2177249:Comment:183542009-08-21T21:41:36.351ZMagnus Hultinhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MagnusHultin
And I realise now that I put the wrong name in my last post. It was Your post I was digesting Ned, and I still am.<br />
<br />
I appreciate how You describe Your way to evaluate a guitar, it makes perfect sense to me. Compare to most members on this forum I am probably a beginner, and I don´t do guitar repair for a living. Most instruments I have worked with have been Levins or Levin made Goyas, and I have note seen to many severe bellies. Not in need of JLD fitment anyway.<br />
<br />
I still think the bridge…
And I realise now that I put the wrong name in my last post. It was Your post I was digesting Ned, and I still am.<br />
<br />
I appreciate how You describe Your way to evaluate a guitar, it makes perfect sense to me. Compare to most members on this forum I am probably a beginner, and I don´t do guitar repair for a living. Most instruments I have worked with have been Levins or Levin made Goyas, and I have note seen to many severe bellies. Not in need of JLD fitment anyway.<br />
<br />
I still think the bridge doctor, the way I have understood its function, removes or delimits one degree of freedom for the bridges movement, and thereby its ability to transfer motion the same way into the top. Thereby it is bound to change the sound of the guitar. Not nescessarily to the worse, but to something differrent.<br />
<br />
It seems to me like a guitar with a belly big enough to need a bridgedoctor is either to lightly braced from the beginning, or not handled in a good enough way for it to last.<br />
<br />
The only way I can see which preserves the anatomy and function of such a guitar would probably be to change to e new top, identical to the original, or possibly to rebrace it. If the root cause is to light bracing, risk is it will end up the same way again.<br />
<br />
One option I mentioned in my first post in this thread would be to let the belly be and change to an adapted bridge. Make a new bridge with the bridge-top shaved to be in the same plane as the strings, lengthwise. I have never done it, and I dont know if it would be a lasting solution, as the force on the glue joint will pull sligtly more out from the top than before.<br />
<br />
But then again, this would slightly affect the way the bridge connects the string motion to the top...<br />
<br />
I do have an old 70:s laminate guitar (Sigma) in my storage, which has got quite a belly. I have been thinking of making my own version of the bridge doctor, where the part fastened below the bridge is made more like a leaf suspension, to allow more motion in the bridge and still keep it in position. I don´t know what it would prove though, since it is not exactly a master design from start. Still, it´s an idea...<br />
<br />
But If the bridgedoctor removes the issue with the belly and still leaves the guitar with a wonderful sound, who am I to argue.... Magnus,
I think a lot of any…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-21:2177249:Comment:183482009-08-21T18:05:49.330ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
Magnus,<br />
I think a lot of any guitar design is compromise. We brace a resonate top with an X brace so that we can use steel strings. Is this the absolute best way to get the most from that top? Probably not but we really do want our guitars to last. The Bourgeois we put a bridge doctor into is a wonderful guitar but it was also just a bit too lightly braced to keep the bridge from rotating . Please don't think I am denigrating Dana Bourgeois for this. When I evaluate a guitar it is for sound and…
Magnus,<br />
I think a lot of any guitar design is compromise. We brace a resonate top with an X brace so that we can use steel strings. Is this the absolute best way to get the most from that top? Probably not but we really do want our guitars to last. The Bourgeois we put a bridge doctor into is a wonderful guitar but it was also just a bit too lightly braced to keep the bridge from rotating . Please don't think I am denigrating Dana Bourgeois for this. When I evaluate a guitar it is for sound and playability first then construction and looks, pretty much in that order. It is my assumption that any guitar (steel string, at least) that embodies the sound, balance, volume and playability I am looking for will need some attention over it's life time. I suppose it is possible to make a wooden box with strings that will not move but I don't think I want one.<br />
<br />
The only other permanent solution I know of to fix this guitar would be to strengthen the bracing that was designed and installed by a Master at bring out the best tone possible in a guitar. The bridge doctor afforded us a permanent fix with the added benefit of reversibility without effecting anything that makes this guitar great. How is that any more of a compromise than rebracing? This was a great guitar before the installation of the bridge doctor and, years later, it is still a great guitar.<br />
<br />
Ned For this 12-string in particu…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-21:2177249:Comment:183432009-08-21T13:36:42.777ZMagnus Hultinhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MagnusHultin
For this 12-string in particular yes, but I still think it is an interresting discussion.<br />
Not shure the JLD case is closed. I am not saying I will never use it, but is still seems like a compromise to me.<br />
<br />
I read Your post on the matter earlier Tim, and I am still digesting it. I´ll try and express my view further but it´s sometimes hard to get the words right in English..., takes time.
For this 12-string in particular yes, but I still think it is an interresting discussion.<br />
Not shure the JLD case is closed. I am not saying I will never use it, but is still seems like a compromise to me.<br />
<br />
I read Your post on the matter earlier Tim, and I am still digesting it. I´ll try and express my view further but it´s sometimes hard to get the words right in English..., takes time. case closedtag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-21:2177249:Comment:183412009-08-21T11:28:20.897ZTim Macehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/TimMace
case closed
case closed Magnus,
I think you are corre…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-21:2177249:Comment:183232009-08-21T03:31:21.362ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
Magnus,<br />
I think you are correct "that the vibration induced in the guitar top is changed" but this happens every time I shift my arm to play above or below the sound hole too. I would bet that laying my arm over the edge of the lower bout of my guitars has more effect upon the vibrational energy induced into the top than a couple of oz. of BD has.<br />
<br />
I know from experience that a bridge doctor will return a rotated bridge to is original position and I assume that it could over rotate one too but…
Magnus,<br />
I think you are correct "that the vibration induced in the guitar top is changed" but this happens every time I shift my arm to play above or below the sound hole too. I would bet that laying my arm over the edge of the lower bout of my guitars has more effect upon the vibrational energy induced into the top than a couple of oz. of BD has.<br />
<br />
I know from experience that a bridge doctor will return a rotated bridge to is original position and I assume that it could over rotate one too but I think it would actually take a lot more pressure to do that than return the bridge to it's original position. Beside that, I'm not so convinced that it stops all rotational movement when the strings are struck/plucked.<br />
<br />
A bridge doctor, by design, could only stop rotational movement in one direction not both and the brace shaft is a wooden rod which has some flex to it so I doubt that all motion in the forward direction is completely canceled anyway. Beside, the whole guitar vibrates, not just the area around the bridge. Yes, I have a fairly decent understanding of how vibration is coupled to the body of the guitar but I just don't see a BD holding the bridge that firmly in place.<br />
<br />
My experience with the BD was that the device doesn't have to be screwed down really tight to do it's job. The top bracing isn't completely removed from the equation. Remember that the top held up for several years before this repair was required. Sooner or later the bracing / BD will reach equilibrium with the job being handled by both. ( I suppose this adds to the argument that a BD is a crutch but I suppose we could call an X brace a crutch too since it also allows us to string our guitar with higher tension than ladder bracing. )<br />
<br />
The height of the saddle isn't anymore "Insignificant" with a BD that it is without one. The only thing that changes is that the BD can return the bridge/ saddle to a position much closer to it's origin. It's primary purpose is to correct over rotation of the bridge. It doesn't actually move the bridge/ saddle vertically, it rotates back into position. It would not correct a high saddle on a new guitar with a flat top. That's a setup problem. so if the neck angle, relief or other factors in the setup stay the same, a BD should return that guitar to very close to the original action. If any of these other factors have changed too, the BD may be a starting point but the setup may still need to be adjusted after the rotation problem is fixed, and that may mean adjusting the saddle height.<br />
<br />
You mentioned that the bracing of guitars with tailpieces reminds me that that is another caveat to consider when thinking about fitting a tailpiece to correct bellying; Most of those old guitars that we see on ebay with tailpieces are ladder braced.<br />
<br />
Ned My friend picked up his guita…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-20:2177249:Comment:183142009-08-20T23:11:06.122ZRick Homanhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RickHoman
My friend picked up his guitar yesterday, and really liked the set-up. For him, it was essentially a found guitar, so he thought it worth putting a little money into it to get some use out of it. Tuning it down a step made the action good for fingerstyle all along the neck, and he thought that a good compromise. So, thanks again to all for all the helpful suggestions and for the stimulating discussion.
My friend picked up his guitar yesterday, and really liked the set-up. For him, it was essentially a found guitar, so he thought it worth putting a little money into it to get some use out of it. Tuning it down a step made the action good for fingerstyle all along the neck, and he thought that a good compromise. So, thanks again to all for all the helpful suggestions and for the stimulating discussion.