BFTS opinions please - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T22:43:37Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/bfts-opinions-please?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A18225&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDividing the fretting in
a) d…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-19:2177249:Comment:182252009-08-19T10:59:44.769Zdanovehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/danove
Dividing the fretting in<br />
a) down to the top of the fret, and<br />
b) down behind the fret,<br />
the stretch effect from (b) is a bit higher towards the nut,<br />
as you get less tension from (a) before going further to (b)<br />
<br />
Wiggling I think compares to (a) which is not that much near the nut.<br />
<br />
Trying to compensate for (b) at the other end (bridge),<br />
still leaves you with an unfretted open string.
Dividing the fretting in<br />
a) down to the top of the fret, and<br />
b) down behind the fret,<br />
the stretch effect from (b) is a bit higher towards the nut,<br />
as you get less tension from (a) before going further to (b)<br />
<br />
Wiggling I think compares to (a) which is not that much near the nut.<br />
<br />
Trying to compensate for (b) at the other end (bridge),<br />
still leaves you with an unfretted open string. Nut compensation (as I unders…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-18:2177249:Comment:181602009-08-18T03:36:31.110ZRy Chartershttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RyCharters
Nut compensation (as I understand it) is not done so much for the amount pulled down to the board, but for the tension that is at the string at that point. Say you wiggle the string back and forth at the 12th fret....then you do the same motion at the 1st fret....you have different amounts of resistance. That resistance sharpens the note (when fretted) exponentially as you get closer to the nut. A quick test to observe this would be to tune a guitar up by fretting an open E chord. Then play an…
Nut compensation (as I understand it) is not done so much for the amount pulled down to the board, but for the tension that is at the string at that point. Say you wiggle the string back and forth at the 12th fret....then you do the same motion at the 1st fret....you have different amounts of resistance. That resistance sharpens the note (when fretted) exponentially as you get closer to the nut. A quick test to observe this would be to tune a guitar up by fretting an open E chord. Then play an open D....the B string will sound sharp.<br />
<br />
I'm not proclaiming that this is absolute law.....but its what Fieten explained for the purpose of the shelf nut, and its what I have observed for the most part. Are we saying the same thing? What are you referring to as that when you said "that could only be compensated for at the nut." A few reflections:
Compensat…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-17:2177249:Comment:181562009-08-17T23:59:55.026Zdanovehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/danove
A few reflections:<br />
<br />
Compensation is done at the bridge, for the stretch<br />
down to the top of frets. This stretch increases<br />
as you fret up towards the bridge, but the proportions equals out.<br />
<br />
But you also stretch a further amount behind a fret<br />
down towards the fingerboard - an amount being<br />
roughly equal regardless of position on the board.<br />
<br />
However, the open string is not stretched that way,<br />
whether a nut or a zero fret, and here lies a difference,<br />
that could only be compensated for at the…
A few reflections:<br />
<br />
Compensation is done at the bridge, for the stretch<br />
down to the top of frets. This stretch increases<br />
as you fret up towards the bridge, but the proportions equals out.<br />
<br />
But you also stretch a further amount behind a fret<br />
down towards the fingerboard - an amount being<br />
roughly equal regardless of position on the board.<br />
<br />
However, the open string is not stretched that way,<br />
whether a nut or a zero fret, and here lies a difference,<br />
that could only be compensated for at the nut.<br />
How much, depends on gauge, how high the frets<br />
and how hard you sqeeze....<br />
<br />
With all due respect to any prefabric nut or a BF system,<br />
I think it must be custom made for satisfaction.<br />
<br />
I first put a capo on top of the 1:st fret and check the bridge.<br />
Then I do the nut (no further work at the bridge)<br />
I am much more comfortable with my guitars,<br />
after doing that little extra setup.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
(sorry for bad english) I became Feiten certified som…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-17:2177249:Comment:181502009-08-17T20:29:01.424ZRy Chartershttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RyCharters
I became Feiten certified some years back. I've only applied this to electrics but.....The measurement system (entered into a computer program) seemed very cumbersome to me. (measuring from the first fret to the edge of the nut....) After doing some very simple math, I discovered that for any electric guitar, you just add .030" to the face of the nut. They just make it more complicated than it has to be in order to make it seem like its taking a lot of variables into account. Didn't matter what…
I became Feiten certified some years back. I've only applied this to electrics but.....The measurement system (entered into a computer program) seemed very cumbersome to me. (measuring from the first fret to the edge of the nut....) After doing some very simple math, I discovered that for any electric guitar, you just add .030" to the face of the nut. They just make it more complicated than it has to be in order to make it seem like its taking a lot of variables into account. Didn't matter what scale length, fret size, or even string gauge. Well, it was an additional .005" or so for jazz strings......<br />
I called them and complained about the illusion of their "system" but didn't really get anywhere. I started offering customers a .030" brass shim added to their original nut. Takes about 30/45 minutes to do, (if you've precut some brass pieces in bulk) and I charged $75 instead of the $150 BFTS. I tell customers if they don't notice a difference I'll pop it off of there and will give a refund...haven't refunded yet. But I haven't done any in a while as the fad seems to be dying off a bit.<br />
Thing is, the nut compensation system really does work. I was surprised. Open chords especially benefiting from this. Its all about end tension....as someone else already mentioned.<br />
Problem is, if you move the nut closer to the 12th, you have to move the saddle closer to the 12th to intonate. So I use the upper frets (19) to the guitars harmonics to set it. So you actually trade off intonation at the nut for intonation on the upper register. But its a slight amount, and the guitars seem to play better in my opinion. I'm sure I don't understand all of what's going on, but it seems like a step forward.<br />
I should also note, that I don't sell my brass shim as a BFTS operation. Customers ask if I do BFTS, and I tell them no, but I do this and its cheaper and in my opinion, better. And yeah, nut compensation theory has been around forever....I later discovered. I told Fieten to take me off their site and I haven't ordered from there in years, but I'm still on it. Whatever. them's Feiten woids mister!tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-17:2177249:Comment:181382009-08-17T16:39:04.304ZTim Macehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/TimMace
them's Feiten woids mister!
them's Feiten woids mister! The nut compensation ,I belie…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-08-17:2177249:Comment:181232009-08-17T14:37:15.886ZJohn Caddhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/JohnCadd
The nut compensation ,I believe ,is connected to the stiffness of the string .That`s only going to apply on the first fret and each string is slightly different. It took me a long time to understand a lot of this and if I jumped in (as a novice )it`s time I made a little apology.The tuning temperament is already set by all the frets being spaced out as they are .Any players with adjustable gut frets can ignore the last sentence.An outstanding book Lutes,Viols& Temperaments by Mark…
The nut compensation ,I believe ,is connected to the stiffness of the string .That`s only going to apply on the first fret and each string is slightly different. It took me a long time to understand a lot of this and if I jumped in (as a novice )it`s time I made a little apology.The tuning temperament is already set by all the frets being spaced out as they are .Any players with adjustable gut frets can ignore the last sentence.An outstanding book Lutes,Viols& Temperaments by Mark Lindley(Cambridge University Press) describes the history of this problem since about 1520.<br />
The nut compensation is a different thing to the temperament clash between pianos and guitars.(I think)<br />
In fact I still don`t know if these instruments are tuned in a similar way.<br />
Mr Feiten should tell you all about that. This is a big subject with a very long history.Lots of amusing stories of lute players ,music ,composers,Pythagoras,and frustration.ENJOY.<br />
We needed Mr Feiten to bring a complicated subject up to date. Yes indeed, thanks Alys and S…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-01-03:2177249:Comment:76652009-01-03T13:46:25.640ZMagnus Hultinhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MagnusHultin
Yes indeed, thanks Alys and Simcha, for a very understandable explanation.<br />
<br />
It is actually the open string note You compensate, to make it as sharp as the fretted note.<br />
<br />
Is it a correct understanding that it is mainly the extra tension from pressing the string to the fingerboard between two frets, rather than the tension from pressing the full length of the string down to the top of the frets?<br />
<br />
It seems like this fraction of the added tension (causing sharpened note) is constant along the…
Yes indeed, thanks Alys and Simcha, for a very understandable explanation.<br />
<br />
It is actually the open string note You compensate, to make it as sharp as the fretted note.<br />
<br />
Is it a correct understanding that it is mainly the extra tension from pressing the string to the fingerboard between two frets, rather than the tension from pressing the full length of the string down to the top of the frets?<br />
<br />
It seems like this fraction of the added tension (causing sharpened note) is constant along the fingerboard, and also indipendent of action or relief, whereas the second fraction (pressing down to the top of the frets) is increasing as You move towards the bridge.<br />
<br />
My understanding until now have been that the effect of a compensated nut is eliminated by using a capo or by taking barré chords. After giving it some further thought it strikes me that the compensation of the nut (or the position of the zero fret for that matter) actually compensates also for the effect of the actual setting of the capo or taking a barré chord...<br />
<br />
Food for further thoughts..., thanks again! Hi "Fishin" (if I may be so b…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-01-03:2177249:Comment:76472009-01-03T08:18:18.201ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
Hi "Fishin" (if I may be so bold as to shorten you avatar?)<br />
<br />
It does explain why I can never tune to a piano. I play in a praise band at my church. It is the only time I play with a piano and I can NEVER quit get in tune with it. I can tune all my strings to it but then I retune the strings so I can stand to play. It's all really rather frustrating.<br />
<br />
Ned
Hi "Fishin" (if I may be so bold as to shorten you avatar?)<br />
<br />
It does explain why I can never tune to a piano. I play in a praise band at my church. It is the only time I play with a piano and I can NEVER quit get in tune with it. I can tune all my strings to it but then I retune the strings so I can stand to play. It's all really rather frustrating.<br />
<br />
Ned Thanks Alys and Simcha,
I had…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-01-03:2177249:Comment:76462009-01-03T08:05:22.962ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
Thanks Alys and Simcha,<br />
I hadn't thought of this from this angle before. It seems obvious to me that it would only effect open strings but I didn't make the connection and it certainly explains why it must be on the nut. I can see where this might make it easier for me to find a more comfortable tuning.<br />
<br />
I have to admit that I tend to be quicker to discount ideas that are patented and marketed more quickly than I do "freeware" ideas. I'm always a bit skeptical of trusting the information I get…
Thanks Alys and Simcha,<br />
I hadn't thought of this from this angle before. It seems obvious to me that it would only effect open strings but I didn't make the connection and it certainly explains why it must be on the nut. I can see where this might make it easier for me to find a more comfortable tuning.<br />
<br />
I have to admit that I tend to be quicker to discount ideas that are patented and marketed more quickly than I do "freeware" ideas. I'm always a bit skeptical of trusting the information I get from someone with a product to sell me. It seems that I may be too quick in my judgment of this idea.<br />
<br />
I'll look up your article on MIMF but tell me, if you don't mind, is it possible to compensate a nut without recompensating the bridge or will both ends of the scale need to be done together? I've got an old guitar that I've been thinking about reworking ( it will make a good beater to lone to kids at my church that might be interested in learning to play). I was going to replace the plastic bridge with bone anyway. If both ends of the scale need to be worked together, I might use this instrument to experiment on.<br />
<br />
Thanks for setting me straight.<br />
<br />
Ned I believe some guys can hear…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2009-01-03:2177249:Comment:76402009-01-03T06:37:01.673Zthefishinmusicianhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/thefishinmusician
I believe some guys can hear this...There are players out there that can hear it.... and I believe Pete Anderson who says it makes him more in tune with an accoustic piano.... and I believe.....But, we have lived on a diet of those slightly out of tune guitars....Num.Num.!!..No real problem
I believe some guys can hear this...There are players out there that can hear it.... and I believe Pete Anderson who says it makes him more in tune with an accoustic piano.... and I believe.....But, we have lived on a diet of those slightly out of tune guitars....Num.Num.!!..No real problem