Ethics discussion: when to turn away work - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T23:05:29Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/ethics-discussion-when-to-turn-away-work?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A87995&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHeshvan
Surprise!,. I have th…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-05-15:2177249:Comment:1327082014-05-15T22:20:48.381ZRon frazierhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Ronfrazier403
Heshvan<br></br>
Surprise!,. I have the same guitar in my sweaty hands!<br></br>
The back is almost all unglued. One of these days I will make it a project.<br></br>
I have done in the past some Gibson guitars that were basket cases and for the $1 or 2 thousand got talked into the job. It is a challenge.<br></br>
I had a old harmony arch top that was solid and looked ok so charged him for a new set of strings sand I thought<br></br>
A simple fret leaving job and for being a good boy installed a truss rod. It was…
Heshvan<br/>
Surprise!,. I have the same guitar in my sweaty hands!<br/>
The back is almost all unglued. One of these days I will make it a project.<br/>
I have done in the past some Gibson guitars that were basket cases and for the $1 or 2 thousand got talked into the job. It is a challenge.<br/>
I had a old harmony arch top that was solid and looked ok so charged him for a new set of strings sand I thought<br/>
A simple fret leaving job and for being a good boy installed a truss rod. It was for his son and a guitar that he had for years. The kid a grown man, sold it to hock shop and they brought to me and wanted to sell it to me!<br/>
I said no I have lost enough money on it now!<br/>
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I never learn.<br/>
Ron You had to bring up the pro…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-11:2177249:Comment:877742012-05-11T04:43:56.954ZJohnhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/John631
<p> You had to bring up the proctologists.....Many a luthier has started out with a good attitude until the grumpy customer wrecked 'um.</p>
<p> You had to bring up the proctologists.....Many a luthier has started out with a good attitude until the grumpy customer wrecked 'um.</p> Brian, my opinion is that you…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-11:2177249:Comment:879212012-05-11T02:24:07.866ZThomas Jameshttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/ThomasJames
<p>Brian, my opinion is that you did the right thing. Work like this fun if you have free time for a friend. I have had a small percentage of non-paying customers, and other weird, awkward, and bizarre situations. Each one was a journey that I tried to shorten, end, or just accept as karma ~ or whatever. Saying "No" politely was the best thing I've learned about the personal service business in general.</p>
<p>Brian, my opinion is that you did the right thing. Work like this fun if you have free time for a friend. I have had a small percentage of non-paying customers, and other weird, awkward, and bizarre situations. Each one was a journey that I tried to shorten, end, or just accept as karma ~ or whatever. Saying "No" politely was the best thing I've learned about the personal service business in general.</p> Hesh, John, et al:
We disagr…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-11:2177249:Comment:877642012-05-11T01:58:12.595ZBrad Elbeinhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BradElbein
<p>Hesh, John, et al: </p>
<p>We disagree, but no, I don't take offense by your arguments. Hey, as Rumpole said, I argue with strangers for a living! </p>
<p>I understand your perspectives, both about the inherent goodness of people and about not wanting to start a relationship with what you view as an adversarial contract. I don't share them. But I have to say that the thing I love about artists and artisans is their singleminded focus on the quality of their work. I, too, am…</p>
<p>Hesh, John, et al: </p>
<p>We disagree, but no, I don't take offense by your arguments. Hey, as Rumpole said, I argue with strangers for a living! </p>
<p>I understand your perspectives, both about the inherent goodness of people and about not wanting to start a relationship with what you view as an adversarial contract. I don't share them. But I have to say that the thing I love about artists and artisans is their singleminded focus on the quality of their work. I, too, am uncompromising in my art and wish that I could just do what I do and leave the business to someone else. Unfortunately, when artists do that-- . . . Well, never mind. We've been over that ground.</p>
<p>I have a different view of things, but I won't say you're wrong. Your message, Hesh, is that people create their own reality by their own conduct. It's absolutely true. It is also certainly true that dealing, as I do, with people who are already invested in conflict (both opposing lawyers and clients) warps my view of humankind. It's probably the same thing that happens to cops, intelligence operatives and proctologists. I love the phrase, and aspire to someday be at a point where, "my own doorways [are] where light, friends, and opportunities pass through into my life"--it's a very nice approach to life. And though I know that in this awful e-medium this is likely to sound like condescending BS, I mean it sincerely: I aspire to get to that point. </p>
<p>Meditation hasn't gotten me there yet. Maybe meditation + lutherie will. </p> Thanks for the response Brad…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-10:2177249:Comment:879972012-05-10T23:44:25.151ZHesh Breakstonehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HeshBreakstone
<p>Thanks for the response Brad and a very thoughtful response it is as well.</p>
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<p>As you suggested we are very different people and I will stand by my comments that I believe in people in general and that most folks are decent enough sorts. Sure history has many examples of otherwise... Fortunately for me though none of these sorts seem to be my customers.</p>
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<p>Interestingly enough I consider myself like some of the clients that you described as your own clients. I'm…</p>
<p>Thanks for the response Brad and a very thoughtful response it is as well.</p>
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<p>As you suggested we are very different people and I will stand by my comments that I believe in people in general and that most folks are decent enough sorts. Sure history has many examples of otherwise... Fortunately for me though none of these sorts seem to be my customers.</p>
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<p>Interestingly enough I consider myself like some of the clients that you described as your own clients. I'm also busy trying to do my best work but unlike some of these folks I don't believe that the masses are out there, or, anyone for that matter staying up late at night figuring out how to screw me.... Personally I would consider that to be a rather exaggerated sense of self importance if that was on my own mind.... </p>
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<p>You are or have been, don't know if you are retired or not, in the business of helping people with legal matters and often disputes and/or the avoidance of same. Hopefully I have restated this to your satisfaction which I assure you my friend is my intention. I am in the business of fixing and building guitars and other musical instruments. I see what I do as helping people and that is perhaps the thing that I love the very most about what I do.</p>
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<p>If I had to go to work every day with the idea in my head that someone is going to try to screw me today or even this week I would hang up my tools and do something else... </p>
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<p>Today I asked this question to others as well who do what we do... this Luthier thing and their response was also that although there is a time to lawyer up it's not something that they would ever preemptively do either. Although this was or is your life it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me nervous even thinking about attempting to shield myself against every possible misunderstanding that we can think of.</p>
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<p>I'm not trying to be adversarial with you Brad, far from it and I even asked you how your own instrument and building was coming along. But I have to respectfully disagree with you my friend that your services are not something that I would be looking to benefit from and again if I did find myself in that position maybe I am in the wrong line of work.</p>
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<p>Instead it's all about providing honest value and setting proper expectations up front and when these things are the core of my own transactions with the good people who I am fortunate enough to have as clients everyone seems to be happy at the end of the day.</p>
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<p>And lets not forget the instruments as well even if I do have a romanticized view of many instruments even attributing positive human charteristics, and negitive too... to some of them.</p>
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<p>I may be a very naive former contracts guy for a Fortune 1 company but in my own retirement I got into this business, Lutherie, because I did not want to have to spend another minute over processing every possible lousy thing that someone could attempt to do over money.... I became a Luthier because I love music, guitars, mandos, etc. and in doing so I found great commonality with others, many of the fine folks on this forum and others. Music seems to me to be bringing folks together so at the end of the day I will admittedly be the very last one to attempt to introduce anything that even smacks of the things that drive us all apart. There is far too much of that in our world already.</p>
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<p>I do think too that there is a time for what you are suggesting however please forgive me in advance if I do all that I can to belay the onset of those circumstances and that most unfortunate time... At least for now I will keep attempting to communicate clearly and honestly with my clients and set their expectations up front as realistically as I can.</p>
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<p>Lastly we all have had misfortune in our lives at times and I too am no stranger to this either but it does trouble me that that some who you describe default to the idea that people basically.... well..... suck. If the day ever comes when I feel this way I won't be posting on Internet forums anymore... I too lock my doors as well but prefer to view my own doorways as where light, friends, and opportunities pass through into my life.</p> Well said Hesh. I've been fix…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-10:2177249:Comment:879952012-05-10T17:50:38.013ZJohnhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/John631
<p>Well said Hesh. I've been fixing guitars for a living for almost 30yrs, and I still love coming into work every day, it's not about the money.(there are easier ways) In my days of working live shows as a guitar tech, we (guitar techs) were treated like gold, it was easy to work hard for the "rock stars" . The lesson was treat your customers well and most of them will treat you well. I can settle for most.</p>
<p>Well said Hesh. I've been fixing guitars for a living for almost 30yrs, and I still love coming into work every day, it's not about the money.(there are easier ways) In my days of working live shows as a guitar tech, we (guitar techs) were treated like gold, it was easy to work hard for the "rock stars" . The lesson was treat your customers well and most of them will treat you well. I can settle for most.</p> Two responses, then back to l…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-10:2177249:Comment:879152012-05-10T15:41:37.953ZBrad Elbeinhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BradElbein
<p>Two responses, then back to legalese, non-opportunity and pessimism (i.e., work): </p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. Most of my early clients were craftsmen: small contractors in wood or concrete or whathaveyou--people who took great pride in the work of their hands and didn't give a damn about the business end. They were principally people who had your approach. They didn't become my clients because I went out there and dragooned them into my tiny little office. They became my clients because while…</p>
<p>Two responses, then back to legalese, non-opportunity and pessimism (i.e., work): </p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. Most of my early clients were craftsmen: small contractors in wood or concrete or whathaveyou--people who took great pride in the work of their hands and didn't give a damn about the business end. They were principally people who had your approach. They didn't become my clients because I went out there and dragooned them into my tiny little office. They became my clients because while they were busy doing their best work, there were people out there spending their time figuring out how to screw them. I believe it's most people; You can believe it's only a few people. But it doesn't matter. The fact is, and I think that everyone who does skilled work knows this, that 1 nut case (never mind one crook) uses up the time you'd like to be spending with 2 or 3 or 10 or 100 good clients. </p>
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<p>2. Your comments about contacts just kind of blew me away. You're either referring to very complicated commercial contracts, or you've run into some really bad lawyers. The purpose of a contract is to enhance understanding: to make sure that everyone understands the other's intentions. Yes, there can be legalese inserted by blowhard lawyers, just as their can be overwrought inlay designs, overfinished instrument finishes, overthought acoustics &c. But a good contract makes sure the customer knows just what you're going to do and what it's going to cost, and assures you that you will be paid the agreed amount. And it can be one page. </p>
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<p>As for the statement that "people are inherently good"--well, as a scientist/luthier pointed out to me on another site, you can believe what you want, but the facts are the facts. I'm not sure that any reasonable reading of history (never mind your favorite news outlet) supports that position. But it is a matter of belief, and you are welcome to yours. I try to treat nearly everyone at the beginning as though they are inherently good. But I don't leave my doors and windows unlocked. </p> Well Hesh I will have to tel…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-10:2177249:Comment:877552012-05-10T13:26:19.367ZWilliam F.Edenhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/WilliamFEden
<p>Well Hesh I will have to tell you are my kind of Man I have read your other post and I happen to be of the same sort of person. It is not always about money .to me its how you feal about your self. BUT then I am not doing this for a living ether. Bill........</p>
<p>Well Hesh I will have to tell you are my kind of Man I have read your other post and I happen to be of the same sort of person. It is not always about money .to me its how you feal about your self. BUT then I am not doing this for a living ether. Bill........</p> By all means Mike please purs…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-10:2177249:Comment:879142012-05-10T10:52:13.361ZHesh Breakstonehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HeshBreakstone
<p>By all means Mike please pursue what you see as an improvement over the status quo but for me and I'm going to rely more on my own senses AND my belief that my clients are not mostly or even partly.... adversarial folks who I need to lawyer up in order to deal with.</p>
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<p>At least for me it's much harder dressing those frets while wearing a full body condom.... ;) Please not smiley face.... the last remark was in jest....</p>
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<p>No objection to being clear on contractual…</p>
<p>By all means Mike please pursue what you see as an improvement over the status quo but for me and I'm going to rely more on my own senses AND my belief that my clients are not mostly or even partly.... adversarial folks who I need to lawyer up in order to deal with.</p>
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<p>At least for me it's much harder dressing those frets while wearing a full body condom.... ;) Please not smiley face.... the last remark was in jest....</p>
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<p>No objection to being clear on contractual terms, rates, instruments left and never paid for, deposits, etc however personally if I feel that I need to invoke these things I would also feel as if a conversation and explanation were warranted as well. Instead it's been my experience that the vast majority of at least my clients are pretty happy to have my help. Those who may feel differently again I see it as my responsibility to head them off at the pass as previously mentioned and perhaps not be their provider suggesting that they go elsewhere. In the second example here, those who need to go elsewhere do you think that any amount of terms and conditions, disclaimers, etc, printed on small print somewhere on the work order that we pass out and is never read (or kept...) will ensure client/luthier nirvana?</p>
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<p>Don't get me wrong, being clear is always desirable in business unless one is Goldman Sachs.... and selling bundled derivatives to one group of clients and selling a hedge or bet against the success of the bundled derivatives to another group of clients.... however from the dry cleaner to the UPS man/woman our entire lives are disclaimed away by those who provide services to us. When was the last time that you read any of the "adhesion contracts..." or terms and conditions printed on the back of the invoice or deposit ticket from say your bank? My point is that although in the event of a dispute terms and conditions printed on your official documents can be referenced but would it not be better entirely to avoid any dispute in the first place including, and this is what this thread is kind of sort of all about... not doing business with those who may be problematic from the get-go? Although one can't ever really know how a client relationship may evolve or devolve.... again most of us were not born yesterday and even though getting an instrument repaired may not be a weekly thing for our clients on the other hand we do this every day and at some point should have some sense of many of the potential pit falls that we may encounter.</p>
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<p>Lastly, for now, I can think of about a million examples too where terms and conditions already exist for all to see on a businesses documents but the proprietor sees fit to cave to offer an accommodation to their clients. This may be done to avoid being trashed on an Internet forum or to avoid having one's good-will damaged or perceived to be damaged.</p>
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<p>Which again brings me to the idea that no amount of terms and conditions even clearly printed OR stated in advance even with a possible signature of acknowledgment will ensure a dispute free transaction. Instead our best bet in my humble opinion is to learn to communicate very clearly with our clients and above all LISTEN to what they have to say and consider what we hear up against what we offer, time frame, prices, desired outcome, potential pitfalls, and set the expectation correctly via discussion up front - not relying on disclaimers on a work order to settle any dispute that arises.</p> I don't believe a contract or…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2012-05-09:2177249:Comment:878332012-05-09T23:21:58.594ZMike Kolbhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MikeKolb
<p>I don't believe a contract or set of agreed-upon stipulations needs to be intimidating or daunting in the slightest. Quite the contrary... it would clearly spell out who is responsible for what.</p>
<p>Everyone has set rates for their work, do they not? Be forthright and lay it all out upfront. The good, the bad and the ugly... and In print. If common sense was common, a handshake could replace all contracts, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.</p>
<p>I agree that our customers are…</p>
<p>I don't believe a contract or set of agreed-upon stipulations needs to be intimidating or daunting in the slightest. Quite the contrary... it would clearly spell out who is responsible for what.</p>
<p>Everyone has set rates for their work, do they not? Be forthright and lay it all out upfront. The good, the bad and the ugly... and In print. If common sense was common, a handshake could replace all contracts, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.</p>
<p>I agree that our customers are human beings with broken musical instruments that need what we have to offer. But my utility company, mortgage lender and bank need a little more reassurance than a compassionate. benevolent attitude. </p>
<p>I, for one,would like to see what Brad has to offer, and it sounds like he's on the right track.</p>