Innovative Design and finest quality from China :-) - FRETS.NET2024-03-29T09:11:08Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/innovative-design-and-finest?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A27255&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWell, as long as we're chasin…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-21:2177249:Comment:275452010-03-21T19:45:22.695ZRob Mercurehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RobMercure
Well, as long as we're chasing toward the bottom I've seen acoustic guitars - supposedly playable - advertised just before Xmas at wallyworld here in the States for less than $60US. No idea where they were made as I just passed 'em by. And while I do agree with Mr. Ford's assertion that there have always been cheap instruments technology/engineering changes have allowed the lowest level quality instruments to be made by machine which has allowed on one hand a great deal of standardization which…
Well, as long as we're chasing toward the bottom I've seen acoustic guitars - supposedly playable - advertised just before Xmas at wallyworld here in the States for less than $60US. No idea where they were made as I just passed 'em by. And while I do agree with Mr. Ford's assertion that there have always been cheap instruments technology/engineering changes have allowed the lowest level quality instruments to be made by machine which has allowed on one hand a great deal of standardization which may have helped things like neck thickness and such but have also let those little annoying things like palm ripping frets which can only really be noted by a human to dominate. Also cheaper instruments used to actually use fairly good woods at time albiet not those prefered for tonal quality while now various plywoods are dominate with some having core stock of luan and other "cardboard" woods.<br />
<br />
While I can't credit cheap guitars as having helped me learn to play I can credit them for providing some of my first "take it apart and see how it's put together experiences" although I never thought that the Teisco Del Rays and others that I parted out would ever be collector's items . And a few actually turned into playable instruments after I had shaved wood and cobbled parts from several together.<br />
<br />
Rob Maybe you could have an appre…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-20:2177249:Comment:274922010-03-20T13:59:26.281ZHarry Springhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HarrySpring
Maybe you could have an apprentice take it on as an unpaid learning experience. Good lucky!
Maybe you could have an apprentice take it on as an unpaid learning experience. Good lucky! Add to the list the following…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-19:2177249:Comment:274762010-03-19T22:01:28.531ZMac Walkerhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MacWalker
Add to the list the following with other products exported from China:<br />
<br />
Use of lead based paint - not only has this affected toys but even motorcycles have been put on the recall list<br />
.<br />
drywall - homes in Florida (humid environment) have reported problems with odor and corrosion of copper pipes (to the point of failure). Investigation revealed use of fly ash with toxic/corrosive chemicals in the drywall mix.<br />
<br />
magnet wire - I deal with electrical issues on a daily basis in my "real job".…
Add to the list the following with other products exported from China:<br />
<br />
Use of lead based paint - not only has this affected toys but even motorcycles have been put on the recall list<br />
.<br />
drywall - homes in Florida (humid environment) have reported problems with odor and corrosion of copper pipes (to the point of failure). Investigation revealed use of fly ash with toxic/corrosive chemicals in the drywall mix.<br />
<br />
magnet wire - I deal with electrical issues on a daily basis in my "real job". Anything that uses magnet wire (relays for example) is prone to early failure. My guess is poor quality control of the insulation of the wire. This has ramifications for pickups made with Chinese wire as well...<br />
<br />
automotive fuses - fuses don't function at the required interruption rating and overheat/melt. Some cases of fire reported.<br />
<br />
light bulbs - I've converted from incandescents to flourescents not so much for the environmental benefit, but mainly because I get tired of changing them when they fail after only 20 hours of use. My guess would be substandard tungsten wire.<br />
<br />
milk - this only applies to the domestic market in China. A few years ago some milk suppliers added an industrial chemical to milk to give higher protein readings. Thousands of infants were sickened and hospitalized. Fortunately we don't have to worry about food products so much (yet?). Some chocolate products made it to the U.S. and were recalled.<br />
<br />
Pet food - Thousands of confirmed cases in the U.S. of pet deaths due to similar "spiking" with chemicals to give better protein readings. This was just before the milk incident. If I recall it caused liver failure in pets.<br />
<br />
toothpaste - Didn't affect any markets except consumers in Africa. Apparently high amounts of ethylene glycol were added to toothpaste, sickening the users.<br />
<br />
Just to clarify, it's not my intent to bash, only to inform..... Interesting discussion...
I'l…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-19:2177249:Comment:274582010-03-19T17:58:23.497ZRoryhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Rory
Interesting discussion...<br />
I'll throw this in as a Canadian example-albeit another 'wood' product altogether-- Bauer (skates, hockey sticks etc) had a shop in Cambridge Ontario producing popular quality hockey sticks. They shut it down and started producing their hockey sticks in China. Now they have a huge recall & lost face & confidence due to lead paint on the hockey sticks. They said they moved operations to China 'to be able to reach a price point that the market wanted'. There ya…
Interesting discussion...<br />
I'll throw this in as a Canadian example-albeit another 'wood' product altogether-- Bauer (skates, hockey sticks etc) had a shop in Cambridge Ontario producing popular quality hockey sticks. They shut it down and started producing their hockey sticks in China. Now they have a huge recall & lost face & confidence due to lead paint on the hockey sticks. They said they moved operations to China 'to be able to reach a price point that the market wanted'. There ya go. So long as consumers are shopping for lowest price without regard for personal safety, quality, durability, people will continue to find ways to make things cheaper and the gullible masses will gobble it all up- with no thought to the fact that maybe they have to buy more hockey sticks now, because they break faster,etc. But did the market literally 'ask' for a lower price. No- Bauer are just greedy and want more market share, without adding any more value to the product, in fact diminishing its value.<br />
Back to guitars- I make hand built quality travel guitars and it always kills me that there are travel guitars on sale on ebay for 99 cents- yes 99 cents. I've read reviews-its usually impossible to ever get them up to tune- the tailpiece just bends then breaks, yet someone continues to make a profit from selling this useless crap, year after year.<br />
In my opinion, until every product is priced with its true environmental cost built in, quality, safety will continue to go downhill along with ever more enticing low low prices. I totally understand where Frank was coming from in not bashing China, but have to say I'm with not with him all of the way. If China wants the worlds business in this age, then they need to estalish some real standards that make sense in the real world. If they cant get issues like lead paint resolved, which comes up time & time again, then Id have to say its up to governments to stop imports of this garbage. For example-banning painted products (including crappy guitars) from China 100% outright- unless subject to a lead testing regime. Will it happen... no. Free country & all that, everyone is posessed with a quick fix & a low price-its your 'right' to buy foreign crap. Bottom line, we & our consumer society are at fault.<br />
I dont think there's much us luthiers can do under such a systemic failure, other than continue to pursue quality and cater to those who are sick of their lousy out of tune guitars or those that take the time to look at the true cost of products, in the interest of the safety and well being of themselves and ultimately the environment.<br />
<br />
Rory I can top your Euro 99 ( abou…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-19:2177249:Comment:274502010-03-19T15:54:35.289ZBart van Weperenhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BartvanWeperen
I can top your Euro 99 ( about US$ 134) guitars sold by a music-shop Grahame...<br />
<br />
Living in Germany you’ll know the “Lidl” supermarkets, we have them in Holland too. Every now and then they have some special offer on computers/ fishing gear/ tools and yes: also on guitars (displayed between the vegetables, milk, eggs, meat etc).<br />
About ½ a year ago they had an “offer” on what we are to believe to be Classical Guitars, costing Euro 70 (US$ 95). Later they sold “electric guitars” (amp included) for…
I can top your Euro 99 ( about US$ 134) guitars sold by a music-shop Grahame...<br />
<br />
Living in Germany you’ll know the “Lidl” supermarkets, we have them in Holland too. Every now and then they have some special offer on computers/ fishing gear/ tools and yes: also on guitars (displayed between the vegetables, milk, eggs, meat etc).<br />
About ½ a year ago they had an “offer” on what we are to believe to be Classical Guitars, costing Euro 70 (US$ 95). Later they sold “electric guitars” (amp included) for about Euro 100... (And they were sold !!!) Imagine mum and/or dad doing the grocery-shopping: “Need milk, sugar. coffee, beer and of course: a guitar...”<br />
<br />
IMHO there’s nothing wrong with a supermarket selling guitars, as there’s also nothing wrong with selling guitars for less than Euro 100. That is: as long as these guitars are playable at the least! (And anyone selling “wall decoration shaped as a guitar” gets away with that too, as long as they don’t just call it “guitar”).<br />
What is “wrong” is that consumers obviously are willing to buy things like guitars at a supermarket... But hey: ignorance isn’t a crime...(Most of the time it’s just costly)<br />
<br />
I wonder what the real revenues will turn out to be in say another half year, when the bulk of these things will have been returned for repair, but hey: they cannot do that so it’ll be a re-fund... As long as consumers are aware of their consumer-rights...<br />
That’s not to say that all cheap instruments must be “bad”, but I think that good cheap guitars are somewhat like “accidents do happen”.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now to the other side of “our” market.<br />
<br />
Read the following description and ask yourself what you would be willing to pay for this guitar:<br />
“Rosette and Binding with high class black/white purfling; 1st class, 20 years seasoned, air-dried woods. Features: Solid Spruce top; Solid south american Rosewood body; Cedro neck; Ebony fingerboard; Gold tuners; Shellac-Finish and case included.”<br />
<br />
What would this guitar (new) be worth???<br />
<br />
And now the info I omitted:<br />
“PAULINO BERNABE, born 1932 in Madrid, is one of the best and most popular luthiers of our time. Til 1969 he was the head of the either worldwide known factory of José Ramirez in Madrid. PAULINO BERNABE studied a couple of years classial guitar with Daniel Fortea in Madrid. 1973 he built the first 10-string guitar for Narcise Yepes. The guitars of PAULINO BERNABE have an exceptional status concerning tone, craftsmanship, woods and asthtetics. “<br />
<br />
Now what would you be willing to pay?<br />
<br />
I’m guessing that the almost “mystical characteristics” of the luthier will add to your willingness to pay more, but will it be the Euro 20,197.50 (US$ 27,468.60) that the WEBSHOP (!!!) is asking... (And this price is still ex taxes)<br />
<br />
I think that the buyers of “your” Inovative Design instruments maybe shake their heads even harder at this price than you (and me) shake our heads over their choice.<br />
<br />
Bart<br />
(info from: musicstore.com. The Euro does US$ 1.36 today) In my opinion, the issue boil…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-19:2177249:Comment:273972010-03-19T01:30:45.354ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
In my opinion, the issue boils down to education. The only people in the industry that seem to be putting much effort into educating entry level buyers are the manufactures of lower or poor quality instruments.<br />
<br />
A lot of the people that I talk to about purchasing a guitar don't have any idea that one guitar isn't pretty much like another. They are often surprised to find that a decent guitar may cost hundreds of dollars and completely astounded to hear about guitars costing thousands. They just…
In my opinion, the issue boils down to education. The only people in the industry that seem to be putting much effort into educating entry level buyers are the manufactures of lower or poor quality instruments.<br />
<br />
A lot of the people that I talk to about purchasing a guitar don't have any idea that one guitar isn't pretty much like another. They are often surprised to find that a decent guitar may cost hundreds of dollars and completely astounded to hear about guitars costing thousands. They just simply haven't been exposed to these ideas.<br />
<br />
When I was a kid, my grade school (1st grade through 5th grade, for those of us not in the U.S.) used to have periodic "Assemblies" which usually included someone or other playing an instrument of some sort. Now I understand that this was the school systems way of introducing the children to different instruments in an effort to maintain the schools' music program. The point is that they didn't just play them, they talked about their history and their use. They explained how they played them and how the instrument worked, the different types available and even quality. I never saw a guitar in one of these Assemblies. When I entered Middle school. I learned to play the trumpet. Why? I knew about it.<br />
<br />
When I started to learn the guitar, it never crossed my mind that one guitar wasn't pretty much like another. I had certainly never heard anything to make me think any differently. I made a very poor choice for my first guitar purchase because it looked OK to me and it was something I could afford in the moment. It was a "dime store" Harmony and was possibly the worst "serious" guitar I've ever seen. I bought it because I wanted a guitar and I didn't know any better. There wasn't any reason that I would have known. I was ignorant of my ignorance.<br />
<br />
The local music stores certainly weren't doing anything to get information out to entry level buyers of guitars. Ironically, the Harmony was purchased two doors away from one of the local music shops. For a bit more money, I could have purchased one of their old beat up junkers. It wouldn't have been much but it would have been much better than what I got. In the end, I never did buy a guitar from them. I always had this idea that they weren't too "up" on guitars and I ended up traveling 100 miles to buy my first good guitar from another shop that impressed me with their knowledge.<br />
<br />
Most of the guitar players I know were already playing before they really started to learn about quality in guitars and most started on a piece of junk. Thank God for junk guitars. I believe that the market would be much smaller were it not for all the people that started out on trash because it was all they had. I'm sure they are all playing better guitars now. Don't get me wrong, I don't like unplayable junk either and I do everything I can to convince the parents of potential players and the potential players of the benefits of purchasing something decent. With out help, most, if not all, will end up choosing between cheap/bad and nothing at all because they have no reason to understand why they should pay more.<br />
<br />
I'm not saying that people should know all the nuances of a fine guitar but, as it is, most people enter this sphere with no information at all. Why would they know that guitars are not the same. How could they recognize that they can help protect some of their investment by purchasing a better guitar. If dealers want to sell better guitars, they need to help people understand why they want to pay for them. and they need to start doing it before the buyer is aware they may want to buy one. Lower price will almost always win over higher price unless the buyer has a good reason pay more and it is the sellers responsibility to help them understand what that reason is.<br />
<br />
I don't like these trash guitars but I don't have a problem telling a parent that is concerned that it is a passing whim in their child to go ahead and get one, as long as they understand that it reduces the chances their child will stick with it and that it is disposable with no practical return on investment and not practical path for repair. In the end, I think it's better for a kid to try on an piece of junk than not try at all bit I do everything I can to convince them to purchase better in the interest of giving their kid a chance.<br />
<br />
I'll pass the soap on to the next person now.<br />
<br />
Ned Strangely enough this discuss…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-19:2177249:Comment:273962010-03-19T01:21:19.134ZMac Walkerhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MacWalker
Strangely enough this discussion brings to mind "Tank Man", you know, the guy who stood by himself in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square to protest the government in a pro-democracy march. Of course nobody really knows what happened to "Tank Man" although it's widely believed he was executed. Fast forward twenty years, where SX guitar factory workers toil 60~70 hours a week for $1/hour, probably live in company housing, spend half their income on food, the list goes on and on. If only "Tank…
Strangely enough this discussion brings to mind "Tank Man", you know, the guy who stood by himself in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square to protest the government in a pro-democracy march. Of course nobody really knows what happened to "Tank Man" although it's widely believed he was executed. Fast forward twenty years, where SX guitar factory workers toil 60~70 hours a week for $1/hour, probably live in company housing, spend half their income on food, the list goes on and on. If only "Tank Man" could see his SX guitar brethren now :) hey gram looks like great opp…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-19:2177249:Comment:273912010-03-19T01:02:54.667ZFRANKhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PAUL
hey gram looks like great opportunity to show this shop your stuff and repair this guitar by level crown and polishing the frets to play decently enough here you can name your price with the shop I am almost positive of it
hey gram looks like great opportunity to show this shop your stuff and repair this guitar by level crown and polishing the frets to play decently enough here you can name your price with the shop I am almost positive of it Hi Frank
I didn't want to bas…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-18:2177249:Comment:273862010-03-18T20:29:17.887ZGrahame Myershttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/GrahameMyers
Hi Frank<br />
I didn't want to bash the chinese, I know they can do good work. Here in Germany you can buy Cort and Walden for example, great guitars for around €200-250. One of my pro customers has a chinese Guild that is a really good guitar, better than some Taylors I've played. My personal acoustic instruments are a T.Burton 6-string, and a Cort 12-string, both made in China, and together they cost €400. I've tuned them with a fussy setup and fretdress, and replaced the nut and saddle with bone,…
Hi Frank<br />
I didn't want to bash the chinese, I know they can do good work. Here in Germany you can buy Cort and Walden for example, great guitars for around €200-250. One of my pro customers has a chinese Guild that is a really good guitar, better than some Taylors I've played. My personal acoustic instruments are a T.Burton 6-string, and a Cort 12-string, both made in China, and together they cost €400. I've tuned them with a fussy setup and fretdress, and replaced the nut and saddle with bone, and they are both fine guitars.<br />
But the point I'm trying to make is that you can't just keep making things cheaper and cheaper to serve the market.<br />
It's a downward spiral that's got to be stopped somehow. Sometimes you have to say stop! Here and no further. I hear people in the music shops who think that €50 is too expensive for a guitar. You can't help people like that, they're just cheap. If <i>all</i> the music shops just said sorry, the cheapest guitar we have costs €200, maybe not as many people would buy guitars. But in the long run, the idea that a guitar is a musical instrument that has it's price, and not a can of beans for 65c, would lead to more quality awareness.<br />
In the long run, selling cr*p for €99 is going to boomerang back on the shop that sold it: In the shop that I do work for, it's already started: The first guitars from this series are coming back after a few months with seperated bridges, twisted necks and lifting frets etc. The shop sends them to me. So I tell them it's gonna cost €60 to glue the bridge back on, or €70 for a fretdress and setup: you can imagine how that goes down by people who thought they were going to get a playable guitar for €99. The thing is, if they'd glued the bridges properly, maybe strengthened with 2 screws hidden under MOTS dots, (which Takamine and many others have always done), and done a quick fretdress, it'd have only cost a few pennies more with the economies of scale in mass production. OK,still a cr*p guitar, no tone, no dynamics, lousy finish, but <i>playable</i><br />
We've got to start fighting back somehow: how do I sell a refret for €200, or a setup for €70, or all the other work that guitars need, to someone who only paid €99 for the whole guitar? (And thought that was a lot of money for "just" a guitar) And they're the same people who happily pay hundreds for the latest i-phone or X-box, or some other useless gizmo that'll be outdated in a few months.....<br />
We have to improve quality awareness, and make it clear to these people that a minimum of playability is essential <i>especially</i> when it's the first guitar, and under a certain price it just ain't possible, despite lower wages in China or India or wherever. The novice players of today are the potential customers from tomorrow, but most of them give up after getting bloody fingers trying to play these junk instruments. It's a shame, I have the feeling (at least from knowledge of the German market), that we (as an industry), are busy cutting our own throats.<br />
So, thanks for listening, I just had to get that off my chest :-)<br />
By the way, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you personally for all you've taught me over the years, your website is a goldmine of great information. The information there has helped me numerous times when I was stuck with a job, and wasn't sure how to get the job finished. You've saved my bacon more times than you can imagine!<br />
<br />
Grahame In my opinion, this "China ba…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-03-18:2177249:Comment:273642010-03-18T15:10:55.716ZFrank Fordhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/FrankFord
In my opinion, this "China bashing" simply isn't appropriate.<br />
<br />
1. Junky cheap acoustic guitars aren't a new thing. When I first got going, we had those ridiculous all-hardwood American made ones with unplayable necks and no tone, molded plastic ones, even some with fiberboard bodies, the ones brought in from Tijuana, some of which sounded good, but fell apart, and some really European instruments. Later it was a flood of cheesy Japanese guitars, followed by Korean and Philippine made horrors.…
In my opinion, this "China bashing" simply isn't appropriate.<br />
<br />
1. Junky cheap acoustic guitars aren't a new thing. When I first got going, we had those ridiculous all-hardwood American made ones with unplayable necks and no tone, molded plastic ones, even some with fiberboard bodies, the ones brought in from Tijuana, some of which sounded good, but fell apart, and some really European instruments. Later it was a flood of cheesy Japanese guitars, followed by Korean and Philippine made horrors. Now we have Chinese junk and even worse, some elaborately inlaid and expensive unplayable ones from southeast Asian sources.<br />
<br />
2. Whose "fault" is it? Ours, of course. We support the market of junky products in every sector. Look at the home shopping channels, check out Walmart - the list of importers and sources is endless. Our economy is built on blind consumerism where celebrity endorsement replaces rational thought, where quantity trumps quality, and low price is the great motivator.<br />
<br />
3. Trust me, there is no shortage of highly skilled craft in China. That culture has been around for millennia and all you have to do is take a look at their traditional wood carvings to understand how insanely good they are at it.<br />
<br />
4. As China rises to the industrial level of the US, they need to sell LOTS of product, and they'll make just about anything we ask them to. So, when our importers go from one manufacturer to another trying to get guitars landed here for even lower prices every year, there are factories ready to take the orders.<br />
<br />
5. Look at the stuff coming in with these brands: Eastman, Kentucky, Gold Star, Blueridge, Scott Cao, Hill, and lots of others, and you'll see the result of importers actually participating in the design and manufacturing process to get Chinese instruments that rival the quality of the better US made ones.<br />
<br />
Once again, it ain't the maker, it's the buyer. There will always be junk available, and, unfortunately, customers for it, whether they are cheapskates, overly acquisitive, uninformed, ill-advised or just plain duped. . .