Newbie luthier - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T12:48:02Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/newbie-luthier?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A149063&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI tell people that I became…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-30:2177249:Comment:1490632015-07-30T10:19:43.007ZHesh Breakstonehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HeshBreakstone
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<p>I tell people that I became a Luthier as compensation for having rhythm not unlike Steve Martin in the film The Jerk....</p>
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<p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6AlQgq9MRE" target="_blank">Go Steve!</a></p>
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<p>I tell people that I became a Luthier as compensation for having rhythm not unlike Steve Martin in the film The Jerk....</p>
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<p><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6AlQgq9MRE" target="_blank">Go Steve!</a></p> Amen, Russell.tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-30:2177249:Comment:1489812015-07-30T00:37:25.637ZThomas Jameshttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/ThomasJames
Amen, Russell.
Amen, Russell. Without music the world would…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-29:2177249:Comment:1490602015-07-29T23:41:57.760ZRussell Vancehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>Without music the world would be an ordinary place and their are few things that engender such a wide span of emotional responses from such wide demographic/cultural audience. We need our entertainers and we need our musicians and they will remain long after Ipods have become drink coasters. </p>
<p>To be part of that and to provide the necessary support to make this music the best it can be we have us. It's a job that pays about the same as fixing lawnmowers and less than plumbers, but…</p>
<p>Without music the world would be an ordinary place and their are few things that engender such a wide span of emotional responses from such wide demographic/cultural audience. We need our entertainers and we need our musicians and they will remain long after Ipods have become drink coasters. </p>
<p>To be part of that and to provide the necessary support to make this music the best it can be we have us. It's a job that pays about the same as fixing lawnmowers and less than plumbers, but nobody cares about that stuff - and nobody calls those guys back to thank them for helping them and their instrument do what really matters.</p>
<p>Nobody gets off on hearing a lawnmower start up but, to me, there is no better feeling than hearing the first chord bang in on stage at the start of a tour set when its your stuff that is part of making this soundscape happen. It's real and it matters and it is important and if you happen to be your own boss as well it just gets better.</p>
<p>You could work for Google, or be a stockbroker or some corporate flunkie (been one myself), but who wants to die not knowing or fat and rich without knowing what it's like to do something both hard and useful.</p>
<p>Must have taken my esoteric pill this morning...might just go have another.</p>
<p>Rusty.</p>
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<p></p> We have not heard from the OP…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-29:2177249:Comment:1488732015-07-29T11:49:57.620ZHesh Breakstonehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HeshBreakstone
<p>We have not heard from the OP for a while so maybe he decided to take that job at Google starting at $70K with a gourmet cafe with in 25' of every office and company provided laundry services, automotive oil changes in the parking lot, a two wheel scooter to ride around the halls, and a benefit package that has everything imaginable included....:)</p>
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<p>Thinking back... I suspect that there are two main reasons why one would be come a Luthier.</p>
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<p>1) We love the…</p>
<p>We have not heard from the OP for a while so maybe he decided to take that job at Google starting at $70K with a gourmet cafe with in 25' of every office and company provided laundry services, automotive oil changes in the parking lot, a two wheel scooter to ride around the halls, and a benefit package that has everything imaginable included....:)</p>
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<p>Thinking back... I suspect that there are two main reasons why one would be come a Luthier.</p>
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<p>1) We love the work</p>
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<p>2) stupidity.... :) (present company excluded of course...:) )</p> Hers my best advice. Don't do…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-27:2177249:Comment:1488472015-07-27T14:10:34.229ZJohnhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/John631
<p>Hers my best advice. Don't do it. Become and electrician or a plumber and play guitar and work with wood for fun. </p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I love what I do and I've done it for over three decades but there are easier ways to make a living.</p>
<p>Hers my best advice. Don't do it. Become and electrician or a plumber and play guitar and work with wood for fun. </p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I love what I do and I've done it for over three decades but there are easier ways to make a living.</p> Hello Chistopher, welcome abo…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-25:2177249:Comment:1489322015-07-25T23:40:08.284ZRussell Vancehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>Hello Chistopher, welcome aboard.</p>
<p>I have been busy and I commend the list of "usual suspects" for their lengthy and comprehensive breakdowns of what they gathered over the last 20 plus years. I doubt that you will get the equivalent amount of quality knowledge in your next twenty years - very generous comrades. So much so that it's an easy add: The two things that I know contributed to my own sense of achievement are specializing and learning how to run a real…</p>
<p>Hello Chistopher, welcome aboard.</p>
<p>I have been busy and I commend the list of "usual suspects" for their lengthy and comprehensive breakdowns of what they gathered over the last 20 plus years. I doubt that you will get the equivalent amount of quality knowledge in your next twenty years - very generous comrades. So much so that it's an easy add: The two things that I know contributed to my own sense of achievement are specializing and learning how to run a real business.</p>
<p>Specializing, to me, means choosing a profitable and achievable process to do with the type of guitars you deal with. In our case we build electric guitars, vancecustomguitars.com so we lean in that direction with our repair section/division. In the case of electrics I have a qualification in electronics so that one goes on the billboard, however, I also chose re-fretting and associated neck work (major breaks etc) to go on the list of advertised specialist services . </p>
<p>These specializations are particular in that they are satisfying to do, profitable and hard for the back-yarders or hobby guys to do well. They also require a fair amount of knowledge, good tools and jigs, and a fair skill set.</p>
<p>Also, when the hobby guys "steal" our business by doing set-ups and pickup changes for nothing or little charge we don't feel the pinch as we have a full dance card with the big earners. More work than time works for us.</p>
<p>Secondly, the decision to become a full time player in this trade should be made on the basis of whether it can support you with a living wage or salary. To work this out you need to know exactly how much your business will cost to run and how much you need to make in an hour, week and year. </p>
<p>If as is or has been the case with most of us here, you find you are working for less than the guy up the road serving at Macca's, you might like to think about whether you wish to go down the path of luthiery/guitar services. Either way, you should be as good at doing business and making the efficiencies and hard decisions as you are at doing the skilled hand work that earns the money.</p>
<p>So, that's my take on how it should look when it's up and running. But the small steps you will start out on are different: work for nothing for a month in any luthiery/repair shop that will have you, you mentioned one in the area: put together a resume or short appreciation of what you could bring to his business and then phone him up and make an appointment . If you don't take this bold step you will never know - nothing bad can come of this even if he cannot offer you anything - its a lot worse getting knocked-back by super-models and we all keep doing that.</p>
<p>Alternatively, design a program like working for a couple of years doing whatever it takes to save enough money to go to an acredited luthiery school or course in a few years time, and in those years spent working start consuming as much information as possible form all sources you have available. Dan Erlewine's "Guitar Player Repair Guide" is a good place to start as are the Stewmac "Trade Secrets" series - good basic stuff that works and will keep you safe. I'm OK with YouTube, but only because we can sort out the good stuff from the rubbish and BS that prevails there.</p>
<p>Give me a PM here or Email us at tech@vancecustomguitars.com and I will give you my must have reading list.</p>
<p>This is a bit of a ramble Chris, but I hope it adds to the already sterling advice you have been given here by my revered colleagues.</p>
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<p>Rusty. </p>
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<p></p> I've met lots of people that…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-25:2177249:Comment:1489282015-07-25T20:42:20.943ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p>I've met lots of people that play high end guitars. I doubt if I've every met anyone that started out that way. </p>
<p>I've met lots of people that play high end guitars. I doubt if I've every met anyone that started out that way. </p> First class post, Todd! Very…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-25:2177249:Comment:1491132015-07-25T10:43:00.430ZHesh Breakstonehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HeshBreakstone
<p>First class post, Todd! Very well said and and impressive description of the "real-world" of Lutherie for those starting out.</p>
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<p>After reading your story it reminded me that we all have to be willing to have a great deal to do with not only finding our place in the Lutherie world but being prepared to "make" our place in that world too.</p>
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<p>We also share a bit of a different view, perhaps not so different in reality though with many Luthiers who will understand. It's…</p>
<p>First class post, Todd! Very well said and and impressive description of the "real-world" of Lutherie for those starting out.</p>
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<p>After reading your story it reminded me that we all have to be willing to have a great deal to do with not only finding our place in the Lutherie world but being prepared to "make" our place in that world too.</p>
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<p>We also share a bit of a different view, perhaps not so different in reality though with many Luthiers who will understand. It's easy to bash imports and get into how the competition is fierce, etc. But at the end of the day imports, especially the ones that are set-up in the US for ultimate playability serve an important place in the market.</p>
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<p>Why? Because everyone deserves to have great music in their lives and working on budget instruments can be as rewarding as working on a pre-war Martin, perhaps even more so if at the end of the day someone replies to you "awesome" I can make that chord that I never before could do well!</p>
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<p>Not to get too philosophical here but I also admire anyone who pursues what's going to make them happy, their respective dream so-to-speak. I didn't do that until after I was 50 and am very sorry now as I wonder if I would be taking medication for hypertension had I been a Luthier most of my life. Then there are Ov*tions.... so maybe I would still have hypertension anyway.... :) Or Rickenbackers..... where's my Lisinopril!!! :)</p>
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<p>Strangely I could care less most of the time what I am working on and everyone and everything gets the very same level of attention. These days going to work for me relaxes me and I joke to folks that I come to work to unwind but it's true! :)</p>
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<p>Thanks for that, Todd, very well put together post!</p> Let me preface this first pos…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-23:2177249:Comment:1490112015-07-23T21:33:17.662ZTodd Reichhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/ToddReich
<p>Let me preface this first post of mine on this forum by giving a profuse thanks to Frank Ford, and to the community that populates this forum. I have read it for a long time, and cannot emphasize how much I've learned. The talent that digitally congregates here is very respectable, and it's a very special resource to me.<br></br><br></br>The previous posts are incredibly informative, and Hesh delivered an impressively detailed breakdown. He talked about deciding what you'd like to do in the field,…</p>
<p>Let me preface this first post of mine on this forum by giving a profuse thanks to Frank Ford, and to the community that populates this forum. I have read it for a long time, and cannot emphasize how much I've learned. The talent that digitally congregates here is very respectable, and it's a very special resource to me.<br/><br/>The previous posts are incredibly informative, and Hesh delivered an impressively detailed breakdown. He talked about deciding what you'd like to do in the field, with regards to building, repairing, etc, and this is very important.<br/><br/>I'll share a bit of my story because, 10 years ago, I was in a similar situation. Recently out of high school, in the middle of my first year of community college, living in an area with no immediate resources (there were nearby resources a short distance away in Los Angeles, but it was far enough away to be unrealistic for someone with no professional background). I decided that working on guitars was the life I wanted, but had no idea where to begin. Note that I don't feel my path is typical of the frets.net community; I am not a "luthier," though I have in the past and continue to "luthierize." I am, to be semantically correct, a guitar technician working within the guitar manufacturing industry. I won't mention the specific company, but we specialize in solidbody electric guitars. It's good to keep this in mind, because the choices I made that led me here probably wouldn't be the same choices you'd make if you wanted to be the next Somogyi or Matsuda.<br/><br/>I decided to attend a luthiery school, and I would recommend this. I chose not to pursue an apprenticeship because apprenticeships are complicated these days; Back in the day, folks would invest in developing a total novice into a professional, but it seems to me that these days folks expect a higher level of proficiency out of their apprentices right out of the gates. However, it never hurts to ask, especially if you are modest and humble when you do so. I went with Roberto-Venn, in Phoenix, Arizona, for a luthiery school. It was one of the best 6-months of my life, uprooting my life and going where I knew nobody, spending 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week learning about that which I was passionate, then going home and studying more (partly because of my obsession, partly because I couldn't afford to do anything or go anywhere else). I also got to see Frank Ford refret an old Martin while lecturing us, like he was Bob Ross doing nothing more than painting happy little trees. It was great. I apologize for the use of all caps, but this also needs to be emphasized: ACCREDITED LUTHIERY SCHOOLS ACCEPT FINANCIAL AID. Loans, grants, scholarships, etc can all be used to develop the foundation of your education. I emphasize this because, if I didn't take advantage of financial aid, I would never have been able to afford luthiery school. And, looking back, not attending would have been the worst mistake of my life. Roberto-Venn, for one, has a very good placement program (Collings Guitars visited at one point and about 4 students were hired to begin after graduation before the class was even over), though I did not take advantage of it; I had already negotiated some contract repair work upon my return with a local music school/retail store in my hometown. I thought that I had something in the bag, and I was wrong.<br/><br/>Independent repair work is difficult when you're beginning. Personally, I found myself spending an inordinate amount of time wistfully looking at the front door, hoping the next job will walk through any second. I didn't have the funds to hit the pavement and drum up more business, and ended up getting a retail job to support my "dream job." I didn't give up though, and every few months would scour the internet for any job at any guitar company/manufacturer/luthier. At first I tried to keep it local, but soon I was looking for ads in New York and Boston, as well. Eventually, I saw a job posted with a guitar manufacturer. They were local! Even more exciting, one of the "quirks" of this company is that, despite predominantly being an import-guitar manufacturer, their protocol was that every single guitar gets a full setup, including fretwork, by an American tech. I saw the opportunity in that volume of experience; I get to do thousands of fret jobs a year, and I'm not held personally financially responsible if things go awry.<br/><br/>Long story short: It worked out well for me. Though I don't earn the respect of those peers that turn their noses up at instruments branded Made In Korea/Indonesia/China (of course, I could be self-conscious of this...), I feel lots of validation in my work. People these days don't have lots of money, and I have the opportunity to deliver them the quality instruments they deserve at prices that blow their minds. I get a regular paycheck, a good deal of which I use to expand my personal workshop at home, and benefits. Despite the context of my employment, I've always had an almost psychotic focus on work, and a cussedness about myself when it comes to quality; "Good enough isn't." I don't know if it was because of these qualities, or in spite of them, but I was promoted within the company after a few years. I still do independent contract work, but it's subsidized by my "day job." I'm 10 years into my career, and love it; I keep learning and improving every day, and oftentimes find myself stopping and thinking, astonished, "Hey, I actually get a salary for doing this!" And every day I get closer to my dream of getting my personal shop rounded out to the point that I can churn out acoustic builds in my free time and follow some other fantasies (I want to build my own Banjola!). Even then, though, I don't see myself quitting what is now my day job. It is my personal opinion that this is a fantastic path for someone who wants to break into the field these days; Go for a job in the instrument manufacturing industry, trying to follow your passions as genuinely as possible in doing so. Keep in mind that the skills you will develop may be constrained by the protocols of the manufacturer, so don't expect your job to "round you out" on it's own accord. Think of it as a way to subsidize your obsession and learning in your off time, while being lucky enough to make it so your paid-time still contributes to your personal professional development.<br/><br/>Pursue the possibilities of a local apprenticeship if you can. However, I would say that anyone getting into this field today should be prepared to relocate. I feel relocation as a luthier is a potential fact of life; Companies fold, populations dry up (or explode elsewhere), and you may find yourself presented with a situation where you have to go where the work is. Chances are good (though not absolute) that if there aren't many luthiers or techs in your area, there may not be a sufficient enough population to make it a feasible occupation. Make an honest assessment of how successful your business might be in your area. You might find that you feel you'll have to relocate at some point regardless of your present situation, and that realization can lead to having a more full appreciation of certain opportunities. Keep in mind that the more fruitful the location is, with regards to work, oftentimes the competition will be proportionately stiffer.<br/><br/>As far as specific resources, there are plenty of online guitar building resources. Crimson Custom Guitars has a fantastic forum, oriented towards boutique-quality solidbody electric, and has a subscription "guild" that includes instruction on building guitars and discounts on tools. O'Brien Guitars has great instruction for building acoustics. LMI and StewMac both have fantastic informative video sections with tech tips. YouTube isn't ideal, but there are some very fine folks doing very fine work. In addition, never forget about books. If I find a book I don't own that goes into some technical detail of instrument work, whether it has to do with electric guitar fretwork or jawari work on a sitar, I buy it. Nothing is quite the same as first-hand experience, but the value of learning from the experience of others should never be underestimated, as you are clearly aware due to your excellent questions. In addition, never pass up a free or close-to-free instrument; The problems you can find in a $25 Garage Sale Special can give you hundreds of dollars worth of lessons, if you evaluate them carefully enough.</p>
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<p>I sincerely hope this post has some value for you.</p> Hi Chris & again, welcome…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-07-20:2177249:Comment:1485622015-07-20T22:18:46.370ZPaul Verticchiohttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulVerticchio
<p>Hi Chris & again, welcome :)</p>
<p>I believe we've achieved a high water mark with Hesh's and Norm's replies.</p>
<p>They gave you ALL of the essential info and considerations with just two extremely well thought out responses. I can add nothing.</p>
<p>May you enjoy good fortune and success, both professional AND personal, with your passion.</p>
<p>P :)</p>
<p>Hi Chris & again, welcome :)</p>
<p>I believe we've achieved a high water mark with Hesh's and Norm's replies.</p>
<p>They gave you ALL of the essential info and considerations with just two extremely well thought out responses. I can add nothing.</p>
<p>May you enjoy good fortune and success, both professional AND personal, with your passion.</p>
<p>P :)</p>