Plek - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T15:19:42Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/plek?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A76197&feed=yes&xn_auth=noBob,
Most of us who deal with…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-11-09:2177249:Comment:766752011-11-09T13:32:55.025ZRussell Vancehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>Bob,</p>
<p>Most of us who deal with (or have dealt with) setting up new instruments at the point of receipt expect to see uneven frets. Doesn't matter whether the instrument was done by a master luthier or a Plek. The high volumes and turnaround speed of production coupled with the need to keep production cost low in the face of rising prices for quality fingerboard wood probably accounts for some of this. </p>
<p>Also, guitars are shipped around the world by shipping container and in…</p>
<p>Bob,</p>
<p>Most of us who deal with (or have dealt with) setting up new instruments at the point of receipt expect to see uneven frets. Doesn't matter whether the instrument was done by a master luthier or a Plek. The high volumes and turnaround speed of production coupled with the need to keep production cost low in the face of rising prices for quality fingerboard wood probably accounts for some of this. </p>
<p>Also, guitars are shipped around the world by shipping container and in air cargo holds which experience wide temperature and humidity changes and may end up (as is our case) coming from a northern hemisphere summer to a southern hemisphere winter (or otherwize) with very short normalisation times or long exposures to temperature variations in sea voyages (especially if on the top load deck). Ebony seems to like to squeeze out frets in this situation but in my humble experience most guitars can stand a touch up upon receipt and six to 12 months into their playing life. </p>
<p>Finally, all stage guitars are subject to robust conditions and electrics especially cop a bit of a hiding - not unusual to have to fret dress every couple of shows for some of my own custom instuments - nothing wrong with the fret job - it's just the environment. Rusty. </p> yep It also could be the oper…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-11-08:2177249:Comment:768112011-11-08T18:36:13.293ZFRANKhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PAUL
yep It also could be the operator , Martin has a quota ,I am wondering if $440 is worth the Guy from San Fran to Plek a guitar I hear he is one of the Best.
yep It also could be the operator , Martin has a quota ,I am wondering if $440 is worth the Guy from San Fran to Plek a guitar I hear he is one of the Best. Today, I could for the first…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-11-08:2177249:Comment:765782011-11-08T15:06:10.755ZBob Steinarssonhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BobSteinarsson
Today, I could for the first time analyze the frets of a new guitar that I believe is pleked (a 2011 Martin D28). I was surprised to hear clicks from my little Stewmac straightedge due to several high or partially high frets along the neck. I'm not talking about very uneven frets, but personally, I don't like to give back a guitar with frets "clicking", at least not from those on the neck end of the 12th fret.
Today, I could for the first time analyze the frets of a new guitar that I believe is pleked (a 2011 Martin D28). I was surprised to hear clicks from my little Stewmac straightedge due to several high or partially high frets along the neck. I'm not talking about very uneven frets, but personally, I don't like to give back a guitar with frets "clicking", at least not from those on the neck end of the 12th fret. Jeffery explain Plz
David Col…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-10-31:2177249:Comment:764422011-10-31T16:52:06.482ZJeffrey L. Suitshttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/JeffreyLSuits
<blockquote>Jeffery explain Plz</blockquote>
David Collins' post covered anything I need to say, other than I use the strings-on method of leveling, so that the neck is in real time tension.<br/>
<blockquote>Jeffery explain Plz</blockquote>
David Collins' post covered anything I need to say, other than I use the strings-on method of leveling, so that the neck is in real time tension.<br/> I haven't tried or even see m…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-10-31:2177249:Comment:764822011-10-31T16:05:05.161ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p>I haven't tried or even see more than a video of a Plek but I do know about computers. One of the first things I learned is that a computer is only as good as the people who designed it, the people who build it and the parts used. I also learned that a good computer is only as useful as the code that is being run on it and the person who is using that code. Lowering the "quality" of any of these and the system isn't as "good" as it could be.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Somewhere, I read some remarks…</p>
<p>I haven't tried or even see more than a video of a Plek but I do know about computers. One of the first things I learned is that a computer is only as good as the people who designed it, the people who build it and the parts used. I also learned that a good computer is only as useful as the code that is being run on it and the person who is using that code. Lowering the "quality" of any of these and the system isn't as "good" as it could be.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Somewhere, I read some remarks about the definition of "quality" with the author commenting that "quality" in a high production environment is much different then the definition of "quality" in a low production environment. In the first, quality must incorporate larger margins in tolerances. Gibson, in the 70's equated "quality" with lower warranty returns and failed to maintain other "qualities" in pursuit of that goal. In a small shop, " quality" is usually defined as producing the best playing, best sounding, best looking instrument possible. The point is that the definition of "quality" depends on who is defining it. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>CNC processes are helping large manufactures bring their definition of "quality" closer to the small shop definition because it helps them do "quality" work at the faster pace their volume demands. The years of repetition a person needs to invest to do that work are almost eliminated and the skill set a "builder" needs shifts to a new arena as a CNC operator. That doesn't necessarily mean that the operator doesn't need luthier skills, only that they don't necessarily need to prefect them to the same "tolerance" to be nearly as effective. Again, the better the operator understands the "skill" being duplicated by the CNC machine, the better work they can get from the machine ( assuming they have the CNC skills as well). </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The point is that small shops don't necessarily have to adopt CNC processes to do the same level of work but they will need to invest a lot more time in learning to do it as well or better. Small shops can invest more time in getting it right that a large manufacture can not afford. Soon or later that time need to do the best job gets shorter as the person gets better at doing it.</p>
<p>The great thing about technology is that it always gets cheaper. Hopefully, machines like a Plek will be refined and drop in price to the point where almost any small shop can have access to the technology if they want it. As it is, there seems to be some concern about the expertise of the Plek operators, When I think about it, who better to get the best out of such a device than the people who are best at doing it by hand? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the future it may be possible to fab metal parts on a "printer" in your shops. If and when that happens, a CNC like Plek will seem mundane.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> As much as I tend to argue th…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-10-31:2177249:Comment:763112011-10-31T04:21:12.565ZDavid Collinshttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidCollins
<p>As much as I tend to argue the often underestimated potential and merits of hand work, I actually do appreciate tools like the Plek machine as a wonderful advancement, and agree with much of what you say. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>There are many qualities that make the Plek machine a fantastic tool. First of course is the ability to scan under actual tension, compensate for changes in position once strings are removed, and machine the frets accordingly. There is indeed the occasional neck that…</p>
<p>As much as I tend to argue the often underestimated potential and merits of hand work, I actually do appreciate tools like the Plek machine as a wonderful advancement, and agree with much of what you say. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>There are many qualities that make the Plek machine a fantastic tool. First of course is the ability to scan under actual tension, compensate for changes in position once strings are removed, and machine the frets accordingly. There is indeed the occasional neck that frustrates me, maybe a thin jazz bass or banjo neck, or one that develops twists or humps not reproducible without string and truss rod tensions. I find it rare, but once in a while I do curse having to go back for touchup work that relies much on memory and approximation. Still, it does seem a rather uncommon phenomenon in my experience, and certainly not the norm. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Beyond that, it saves time when doing fret work in high volume, never gets tired, never comes in to work with a hangover, never asks for a raise, or decides to go off and start its own shop leaving you to have to train another employee on a long learning curve. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>On the other hand I do agree very much with Hesh in terms of economics of the tool, and that you have to have a business plan specifically planned around this investment for it to be worth while. I was actually looking in to getting one for a time, and still wouldn't rule out the option at some point in the future. Ultimately though, I just decided that for the time being it just did not make sense as a wise or necessary investment for my repair business. It probably could if I wanted to focus more on that particular aspect of service, but for the market I'm currently focused on it just didn't make fiscal sense. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I will admit that it was the development of the Plek that really pushed me to try and refine my methods. Even so, I still offer a basic fret dress, similar to what is written above but simplified with less time on repetitive checks, and a bit more tolerance for minor deviations. Even with a price increase of only around 50% for premium precision leveling, most clients still tend to choose the basic dress. That said, I automatically do the premium dress on full fret jobs, as I want my reputation in that market to remain as high as possible. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So I may get one eventually if business scale and plans allow for it, but for the time being I find it more suitable simply to do the work by hand, and when I come across a neck that seems to be acting particularly squirrely, I may simply refer it out to a shop with a Plek if I feel they can achieve results I cannot. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>On a side note, though I never completed my machinist apprenticeship I did spend a few months lapping plates before I left the trade, and still enjoy playing around a bit with rebuilding old machines (have a well worn Hardinge horizontal waiting for my next project). I would never claim to have mastered the art, but it gave me a good start on understanding it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also must admit that economics aside, a part of me does enjoy the more traditional face of skilled trades. When working alone in the shop it's kind of fun to imagine yourself as somewhat like a character in one of Guy Lautard's stories (if you're familiar with his gunsmith prose). A gun maker may be able to bore a rifle barrel to incredible accuracy with great efficiency (and profitability) with modern tooling, but a <em>gunsmith</em> probably receives a much greater sense of contentment upon honing a barrel to just as good of accuracy by careful hands on methods, even though it may take a bit more time. Call me a romantic...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would only differ slightly in what you have said, in that I think discussions like this are not only good to dispel myths or undeserved disdain of technology, but also the inverse of dispelling myths that equal results can not be achieved by more traditional means.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks for the great discussion here. This certainly seems to be one of the more sophisticated luthier salons. ;)</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Randy, I buy the lapping abrasive in rolls (minimum four rolls at a time smallest quantity I could find), and it does not come with an adhesive backing. For the adhesive I use 3M 9447 transfer tape. I used to use 3M 467, but find the 9447 to be a bit more sturdy, less like to lift when pulling off the backing. Plus it's 1mil thick as opposed to the 467 being 2mil. Applying it to the abrasive can be tricky, and I ended up getting some rollers pulled from an old laminator to lay it up. A bit of water between the layers helps prevent air pocket which can't be squeezed out, and it bonds very well to the aluminum bars. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't know how necessary the precision lapping film really is, as a good wet/dry paper is likely to be pretty darn close, and any rogue grits are likely to be knocked down in the first pass or two. Still, now that I have a box of the stuff I might as well keep using them. They do have to be adhered well to the bars though. If there are any loose areas this can lead to false indicators, hitting low areas which are not truly level. </p> Dude, if you can level and dr…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-10-31:2177249:Comment:763102011-10-31T03:05:56.078ZMark Pollockhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MarkPollock
<p>Dude, if you can level and dress frets so that they have no noise, feel good, and make a customer happy, then what else could you possibly need? A PLEK can do more of them than you, faster than you, and without repetitive stress syndrome, but that's like saying that we need to eat out every night because Denny's has a more efficient kitchen that we have. If you can do the job just fine, then there's no need to mess with a machine.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would also question the sanity of using a…</p>
<p>Dude, if you can level and dress frets so that they have no noise, feel good, and make a customer happy, then what else could you possibly need? A PLEK can do more of them than you, faster than you, and without repetitive stress syndrome, but that's like saying that we need to eat out every night because Denny's has a more efficient kitchen that we have. If you can do the job just fine, then there's no need to mess with a machine.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would also question the sanity of using a PLEK on anything that is brand new and not broken in, unless you are a factory. I don't know about you, but it takes more than one go for me to get a fret job just right, partially because I'm a bit of a noob, and partially because everything adjusts with new strings and time. I get it right at first, but then something settles a bit, and I get a buzz somewhere, which I tackle with some careful polishing, and everything turns out fine. I don't see going back to a PLEK over and over to get it dialed in.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And then I read Rusty's entirely too reasonable response and I feel humbled a bit. But screw it. If you have the time to do the jobs, go for it. If there is truly enough savings to go find somebody and see what happens, then go for it.</p> that was heavy Rusty thanks .tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-10-31:2177249:Comment:761312011-10-31T02:25:09.726ZFRANKhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PAUL
that was heavy Rusty thanks .
that was heavy Rusty thanks . Hi David, thanks for that, it…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-10-31:2177249:Comment:764292011-10-31T02:06:25.458ZRussell Vancehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>Hi David, thanks for that, it's probably a landmark post on how to do a good fret-job and as as a Scientific Instrument Maker by trade I can see your practice very sound, comprehensive and appropriate - I did my 5 year apprenticeship hand lapping stuff and generally wearing out my knuckles and eyesight as well.</p>
<p>But, to compare and contrast machines to hand finishing is a futile exercise - automotive cylinder bores and crankshaft bearings used to be hand lapped. Watches were hand made…</p>
<p>Hi David, thanks for that, it's probably a landmark post on how to do a good fret-job and as as a Scientific Instrument Maker by trade I can see your practice very sound, comprehensive and appropriate - I did my 5 year apprenticeship hand lapping stuff and generally wearing out my knuckles and eyesight as well.</p>
<p>But, to compare and contrast machines to hand finishing is a futile exercise - automotive cylinder bores and crankshaft bearings used to be hand lapped. Watches were hand made with hand polished pivots and gears. The end of these practices signalled the beginning of high reliability and high performance as the machines consistently finish to tolerances unheard of in human endeavor. </p>
<p>The ability to consistently replicate a complex and asymmetrical fret profile can only be a bonus to the average guitar player and buyer - the real cost of a well executed hand fret job of this type is probably way beyond what most of us are charging - more than the market can bear for most musicians who already think 100 bucks is too much. </p>
<p>Also, the ability to graphically/computer read a neck under true string tension is a remarkable time saver: I may just be unlucky but I've had more than my share of necks that do not conform under string tension to what they looked like on the bench - I've done too many fret jobs and touch ups twice to fix up wobbly necks. To have a machine read and compensate for this is to me, anyway, a must have.</p>
<p>But, respectfully, these points are mute - at one end of the spectrum we have the professional guitar makers who need speed, accuracy and consistency along with low labor cost to compete with the rest of the world - I note that China and Korea and Mexico aren't awash with Luthiers but they surely put out a lot of reasonable guitars using machine based manufacture (include a lot of the world's Fender guitars here). Plek in this case is essential and 100K is not a lot of money in that context. </p>
<p>At the other end of the spectrum we have our hand made beauties and our labors of love finished by hand with precision hand tools - no need for a Plek at this end of the spectrum. The discussion is more about dispelling the myths and preconceived dislike of these dreaded machines rather than discounting hand finishing and our role in the soul of a finished guitar.</p>
<p>Philosophically yours,</p>
<p>Rusty. </p>
<p> </p> Incredible Man I feel I am a…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-10-31:2177249:Comment:764282011-10-31T01:34:51.055ZFRANKhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PAUL
Incredible Man I feel I am a dam good fret artist also not ever having many problems after building some skill with most guitar necks Ive encountered .But 99% Accurate is 99% Accurate and if I am not 99%,and I can achieve this by cnc well then wouldn't my guitar seam to play better than most or is that just horse shit. each time I am asked to set the action on a Guitar everyone says give me the best results and they each make sure I hear them say this GIVE ME the Best ,now if I go CNC and pass…
Incredible Man I feel I am a dam good fret artist also not ever having many problems after building some skill with most guitar necks Ive encountered .But 99% Accurate is 99% Accurate and if I am not 99%,and I can achieve this by cnc well then wouldn't my guitar seam to play better than most or is that just horse shit. each time I am asked to set the action on a Guitar everyone says give me the best results and they each make sure I hear them say this GIVE ME the Best ,now if I go CNC and pass down the cost didn't I just deliver the goods so to speak .My discussion is about a couple 30 acoustic guitars I built recently over the summer and giving it the true test with the Plek to find out if all around playability improves.its also about My potential customers as well Id like to see my customer play anywhere with ease .