Repair Gibson K-1 mandocello - FRETS.NET2024-03-29T05:59:22Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/repair-gibson-k-1-mandocello?id=2177249%3ATopic%3A145967&feed=yes&xn_auth=noGetting ready. I'm going to…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-03:2177249:Comment:1461352015-05-03T17:08:58.794ZBernie Danielhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BernieDaniel
<p>Getting ready. I'm going to make a form to hold the sides but since the flare out will be at the top only I propose to make it out of 3/4 finishing ply and put "legs" on it so it holds the upper 1" of the ribs in place. Couple of pics. …<a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749556?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749556?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"></img></a> <a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749811?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-center" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749811?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"></img></a></p>
<p>Getting ready. I'm going to make a form to hold the sides but since the flare out will be at the top only I propose to make it out of 3/4 finishing ply and put "legs" on it so it holds the upper 1" of the ribs in place. Couple of pics. <a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749556?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-left" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749556?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749811?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-center" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749811?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p> Hi Ned,
I forgot to comment o…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-02:2177249:Comment:1463932015-05-02T00:53:50.823ZBernie Danielhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BernieDaniel
<p>Hi Ned,</p>
<p>I forgot to comment on this post. Yes without any doubt a mandocello is an order of magnitude harder to play than a mandolin and a good deal harder that a guitar both to play cleanly and also to chord. </p>
<p>The mandocello is a complete monster and perhaps an idea that has not been brought to its logical end point yet. The scale length of most mandocellos is 24.75 - 25" -- but a violin cello is 27". So the scale length - string gauge - pitch range combination is a mess of…</p>
<p>Hi Ned,</p>
<p>I forgot to comment on this post. Yes without any doubt a mandocello is an order of magnitude harder to play than a mandolin and a good deal harder that a guitar both to play cleanly and also to chord. </p>
<p>The mandocello is a complete monster and perhaps an idea that has not been brought to its logical end point yet. The scale length of most mandocellos is 24.75 - 25" -- but a violin cello is 27". So the scale length - string gauge - pitch range combination is a mess of compromises and not all of them work well (IMO). Likewise, balancing intra-course with inter-course distance across the linear distance you have to work with at the nut is like dancing on a pin point. </p>
<p>Here is the good part -- playing a mandocello will make playing anything else including an octave mandolin seem easy. I have a nice Weber Big Sky octave mandolin it is the only F-style octave Bruce ever made with block inlays -- I really don't deserve it -- but it is like playing a toy after the mandocello and it has a 21" scale.</p>
<p>As well a mandocello is very hard on your hands and fingers. I inherited my mothers osteoarthritis in my hands and playing mandocello has killed my joints. They are hugely misshaped now -- but so what?</p>
<p>Take home is no one should even think about a mandocello -- but then you watch Mike Marshall.... </p>
<p>I am totally captured by the idea of a mandocello and while I'll NEVER amount to much on one they might some day have to pry my cold dead fingers off of one. So as Wake Frankfield once said "..that make sense wit you?" (<:</p>
<p></p> OK I'm convinced a hinged for…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-02:2177249:Comment:1461232015-05-02T00:18:48.655ZBernie Danielhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BernieDaniel
<p>OK I'm convinced a hinged form it will be! Thanks again! (<: Bernie</p>
<p>OK I'm convinced a hinged form it will be! Thanks again! (<: Bernie</p> Bernie, the grad course start…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-01:2177249:Comment:1463012015-05-01T23:50:45.740ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p>Bernie, the grad course starts when you pull the back on your mandolin. </p>
<p>Whatever, it should be fun.</p>
<p> I agree with Paul about the using L brackets to support your instrument. A form will do a much better job and do it more easily. The brackets are a repair device and are wonderful for pushing the sides around as needed but would be a major pain in the neck to use them just to hold the shape of the body. </p>
<p>Bernie, the grad course starts when you pull the back on your mandolin. </p>
<p>Whatever, it should be fun.</p>
<p> I agree with Paul about the using L brackets to support your instrument. A form will do a much better job and do it more easily. The brackets are a repair device and are wonderful for pushing the sides around as needed but would be a major pain in the neck to use them just to hold the shape of the body. </p> Paul,
NOW you tell me??
Pret…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-01:2177249:Comment:1462192015-05-01T23:40:41.558ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p> Paul,</p>
<p>NOW you tell me??</p>
<p>Pretty obvious why I chose the avatar I use. Doh!</p>
<p> Paul,</p>
<p>NOW you tell me??</p>
<p>Pretty obvious why I chose the avatar I use. Doh!</p> Well I feel like I've just go…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-01:2177249:Comment:1462162015-05-01T21:22:02.443ZBernie Danielhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/BernieDaniel
<p>Well I feel like I've just gone through a graduate course in taking off and gluing back mandolin tops and maybe I have. Between all this and Frank's initial section I ought to stand a pretty good job of getting it right -- eventually anyway! </p>
<p></p>
<p>You've done a terrific job of documenting things with pictures Paul I'm going to try to remember to also take photos at every step-- no excuse not to with cell phones these days -- the problem is remembering to do it. </p>
<p>Very fist…</p>
<p>Well I feel like I've just gone through a graduate course in taking off and gluing back mandolin tops and maybe I have. Between all this and Frank's initial section I ought to stand a pretty good job of getting it right -- eventually anyway! </p>
<p></p>
<p>You've done a terrific job of documenting things with pictures Paul I'm going to try to remember to also take photos at every step-- no excuse not to with cell phones these days -- the problem is remembering to do it. </p>
<p>Very fist thing I do when I get that back off is to lay it down on a large piece of drawing paper and make a tracing of it. That is so I have a record of the original size and also I will use that trace as a template to cut out a piece of 3/4" plywood to drop in the the cavity when I am not working on it to keep the ribs for flexing inward as well.</p>
<p>For clamping I plan to use the set of spool clamps I made for gluing mandolins only I'll change the bolts to 5" so I can open them wide enough.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749735?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167749735?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p>
<p></p>
<p>I'll probably think more about this whole project for a week or so before I start doing any work on the instrument.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the insights!</p> Hey Ned, here is a simple way…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-01:2177249:Comment:1462152015-05-01T19:02:29.440ZPaul Breenhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulBreen
<p>Hey Ned, here is a simple way to control glue mess inside - if you have the back off.</p>
<p></p>
<p>This is the same mandolin project. Paper or plastic with tape to mask the entire interior.</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783567?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783567?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"></img></a> Would work with F-hole instruments too.…</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783499?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783499?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"></img></a></p>
<p>Hey Ned, here is a simple way to control glue mess inside - if you have the back off.</p>
<p></p>
<p>This is the same mandolin project. Paper or plastic with tape to mask the entire interior.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783567?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783567?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>Would work with F-hole instruments too.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783499?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167783499?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p> I'm glad to see that you're n…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-01:2177249:Comment:1462992015-05-01T18:43:10.654ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p>I'm glad to see that you're not taking all of this as an attempt to talk you out of trying the repair. I think this is a very advanced repair and it's the sort of thing I might suggest that people with less experience should wait to do but you seem to be up to it.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I think that we, as hobbyist, have a great advantage when we can wait as you have done to do a repair. I like starting a new project with a little bit of concern about my ability to handle it. If I waited until I…</p>
<p>I'm glad to see that you're not taking all of this as an attempt to talk you out of trying the repair. I think this is a very advanced repair and it's the sort of thing I might suggest that people with less experience should wait to do but you seem to be up to it.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I think that we, as hobbyist, have a great advantage when we can wait as you have done to do a repair. I like starting a new project with a little bit of concern about my ability to handle it. If I waited until I was absolutely sure I could do it, I'd never start anything. Stretching my ability is part of the fun. It only works for me because I've developed a pretty good feel for the "edges" of my abilities. I had to learn where those are and then how to judge how far past that I can go and still get a good result. It's what keeps this fun for me. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Now to the important stuff.</p>
<p>When I glued the back on in sections, I used a blow dryer ( for hair, not a heat gun) to warm the section I was going to glue then used a combination of a small brush and a thin pallet knife to "slather" as much glue as I could into the gap. I can usually get enough in most of the section with the brush but I like to make sure there is glue in the gap next to the previously glued area. That's where a very thin pallet knife come into play. I'm careful that I don't scrape too much glue off of the joint in the process of trying to get glue into the tight points but I want to have at least a little in there too. I get hot hide glue everywhere when I do it but I'm more interested in avoiding any glueless points. It's a mess but almost any glue can be cleaned up with the right approach. I haven't used this method on anything with "f" holes and don't know if I would because of the glue mess on the inside. I'm not so sure of reaching it well enough with the limits of access. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.</p>
<p>To reach inside, I use various things but I've found that a steel cloth hanger cut with a barb on the end to snag on a rag can be fairly handy for reaching deeper into the body. I like using disposable shop cloths for glue clean up. If you use warm water and don't wring it out too well ( I don't like it dripping but I also need the water to make and keep the excess glue soft enough to wipe up) it's not hard to clean up the HHG. It's NOT quick but it will clean up with patience.</p>
<p></p>
<p> </p> These images are from a diffe…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-01:2177249:Comment:1463892015-05-01T17:21:30.320ZPaul Breenhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulBreen
<p>These images are from a different mandolin but with the same problem and therapy as the one I originally posted.</p>
<p></p>
<p><em>"I'm surprise with all the prevention that you still needed to adjust the ribs when it came time to glue. I can't see how they could move with that containment on both the outside and inside?"</em></p>
<p></p>
<p>The ribs shape and geometry did not change but the back did. In order to wrangle the back fit, as Ned put it so eloquently in a previous post, I had…</p>
<p>These images are from a different mandolin but with the same problem and therapy as the one I originally posted.</p>
<p></p>
<p><em>"I'm surprise with all the prevention that you still needed to adjust the ribs when it came time to glue. I can't see how they could move with that containment on both the outside and inside?"</em></p>
<p></p>
<p>The ribs shape and geometry did not change but the back did. In order to wrangle the back fit, as Ned put it so eloquently in a previous post, I had to loose the jig to be able to flex the sides. The back was no longer the same shape as the mandolin in the form holding jig.</p>
<p></p>
<p>The jig was wonderful though as a holding fixture to do all the the work to the mando with the back off. I don't think that the L bracket fixture would be quite as good of a holding fixture while doing back removal, lining repair from back removal, brace repairs and whatever else needed done while the back is off. </p> Bernie, it's a glue a bit pro…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-05-01:2177249:Comment:1462132015-05-01T17:03:21.041ZPaul Breenhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulBreen
<p>Bernie, it's a glue a bit process, clamp, wedge the adjacent area open slightly, inject the hot glue with a pipette while spreading it with a small thin palette knife and repeat. Even a stiff back will pry open enough to get some glue in.</p>
<p></p>
<p>With the piece heated up under the Red lights, you have some time. Also mix your glue a bit thin so it wicks more readily, this also extends open time. With hot hide glue, you can re-activate an uncooperative area with fresh glue, if things…</p>
<p>Bernie, it's a glue a bit process, clamp, wedge the adjacent area open slightly, inject the hot glue with a pipette while spreading it with a small thin palette knife and repeat. Even a stiff back will pry open enough to get some glue in.</p>
<p></p>
<p>With the piece heated up under the Red lights, you have some time. Also mix your glue a bit thin so it wicks more readily, this also extends open time. With hot hide glue, you can re-activate an uncooperative area with fresh glue, if things start tacking before you get it aligned. Four inches or so at a time or one clamps worth at a time. The project will dictate the length of each application by how well it yields to your pushing and pulling things into alignment.</p>