"Sitar" sound on B string - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T17:17:26Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/sitar-sound-on-b-string?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A172513&feed=yes&xn_auth=noGlad that the mystery is solv…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-25:2177249:Comment:1729992017-09-25T22:02:40.462ZRoger Häggströmhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>Glad that the mystery is solved :-)</p>
<p>Glad that the mystery is solved :-)</p> I haven't tried your suggesti…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-25:2177249:Comment:1728142017-09-25T19:38:18.012ZLesterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Lester
<p>I haven't tried your suggestion with veneer strips in the bridge pin holes. I may still do that. First, I wanted to try a less elegant test. I wrapped all the bridge pins with scotch tape using 2 or three layers until the pins were snug or protruded 1/8" on top. The ball ends look like they seat better, too.</p>
<p>Of course, the tone of everything has changed because of the scotch tape, so now I am ready to try a permanent solution. I have been playing the guitar for a few weeks now…</p>
<p>I haven't tried your suggestion with veneer strips in the bridge pin holes. I may still do that. First, I wanted to try a less elegant test. I wrapped all the bridge pins with scotch tape using 2 or three layers until the pins were snug or protruded 1/8" on top. The ball ends look like they seat better, too.</p>
<p>Of course, the tone of everything has changed because of the scotch tape, so now I am ready to try a permanent solution. I have been playing the guitar for a few weeks now with wrapped pins and am satisfied the problem has been identified pretty well.</p>
<p>To summarize, the sound is due to the string ball or the string itself vibrating against the metal string ground when bridge pins fit loosely.</p>
<p>The sound occurs with stronger attack and is pronounced on certain frets due to the B string being just the right weight and tension (possibly break angle) to set the right harmonics in play. The sound can also occur on other strings (with multiple string changes, the same but much subdued sound occurred at times on high E, G and D but went away with restringing).</p>
<p>If anyone runs into this problem, they should check the seating of the balls on the string ground (or Plate Mate if present). Undersized pins will be obvious and worsen the seating.</p>
<p>The first thing I will try with my guitar is to find over-sized pins since padding the existing ones with cellophane tape has solved the "buzz" or metalic noise. I may also try custom cut pin slots to keep the ball from pulling into the slot. I will also try to curve the edge of the string ground to avoid cutting strings after I get a better fit.</p>
<p>If none of these are completely satisfactory, I will consider cutting slots in the string ground, and last resort, remove the string ground completely. I prefer not to do that because I play plugged in and I do not want to risk getting hum.</p>
<p>It may take some time, but I will follow-up this post with my final results. In the mean time, thanks to Roger and others for reading and providing help in diagnosing this.</p> I don't like the look of that…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-08:2177249:Comment:1727012017-09-08T05:25:19.989ZRoger Häggströmhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>I don't like the look of that! I understand that the plate is there to ground the strings for the pickup. Is it really necessary?<br></br><br></br>For all other purposes it would be better to remove the plate. The bad fit gives all kinds of problems and it will affect the tone. Unslotted pins may be an alternative, at least the ball ends will sit better on that plate.<br></br><br></br>You can glue a piece of thin rosewood/ebony veneer inside the hole in the bridge with hot hide glue. I have done that a…</p>
<p>I don't like the look of that! I understand that the plate is there to ground the strings for the pickup. Is it really necessary?<br/><br/>For all other purposes it would be better to remove the plate. The bad fit gives all kinds of problems and it will affect the tone. Unslotted pins may be an alternative, at least the ball ends will sit better on that plate.<br/><br/>You can glue a piece of thin rosewood/ebony veneer inside the hole in the bridge with hot hide glue. I have done that a couple of times on old guitars with oversized holes. I cut a strip of veneer as high as the bridge is thick and cut it to the length of the inner hole circle. With the grain in the direction to be bendable. Then use HHG and plastic string pins wrapped in plastic wrap to press the veneer firmly against the bridge as the glue sets. HHG is easy to remove even when dried, so you can make a mess. And soaking some thin superglue on the the veneer when it's dry. A bit tricky but works. There are oversized pins to find too.</p> This picture shows the hole w…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-08:2177249:Comment:1726992017-09-08T03:24:12.079ZLesterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Lester
<p>This picture shows the hole when the ball is removed. Fairly large looking to me.</p>
<p>This picture shows the hole when the ball is removed. Fairly large looking to me.</p> Measured a pin, it's .0210" a…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-08:2177249:Comment:1726962017-09-08T00:59:15.576ZLesterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Lester
<p>Measured a pin, it's .0210" at the shank/shaft. My reading on the web says this is the standard size. Hard to believe the pin holes have gotten excessively large, but I just don't know how they should fit.</p>
<p>Also, I've attached photos of the string ground with pins and strings installed under tension. The balls seem to sit funny in my opinion, like they're crawling into the pin slots. I'll take a string and pin out and take another look.</p>
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<p>Measured a pin, it's .0210" at the shank/shaft. My reading on the web says this is the standard size. Hard to believe the pin holes have gotten excessively large, but I just don't know how they should fit.</p>
<p>Also, I've attached photos of the string ground with pins and strings installed under tension. The balls seem to sit funny in my opinion, like they're crawling into the pin slots. I'll take a string and pin out and take another look.</p>
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<p></p> What is your opinion on what…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-07:2177249:Comment:1726952017-09-07T22:15:28.151ZLesterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Lester
<p>What is your opinion on what I described as "loose" pins? I put a pin in with no string and it goes down to the collar and has noticeable slop. I painted one with superglue and let it harden and it also fits loosely. Is this a problem? (I'm thinking it is).</p>
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<p>I going to try and get out the micrometer tonight and see what size the pins are.</p>
<p>What is your opinion on what I described as "loose" pins? I put a pin in with no string and it goes down to the collar and has noticeable slop. I painted one with superglue and let it harden and it also fits loosely. Is this a problem? (I'm thinking it is).</p>
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<p>I going to try and get out the micrometer tonight and see what size the pins are.</p> To me that pickup system has…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-07:2177249:Comment:1727882017-09-07T12:36:54.970ZRoger Häggströmhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>To me that pickup system has a bad design. A metal plate under the ball ends are no good.</p>
<p>As for the bridge pins. Changing to unslotted pins and making a notch in the bridge itself is better. The slotted pins saves time when making the guitar and all the factories ditched the time consuming "making a notch for each string" process the same day the slotted pins was invented. With unslotted string pins the ball ends will seat much better on the bridge plate. With slotted pins,…</p>
<p>To me that pickup system has a bad design. A metal plate under the ball ends are no good.</p>
<p>As for the bridge pins. Changing to unslotted pins and making a notch in the bridge itself is better. The slotted pins saves time when making the guitar and all the factories ditched the time consuming "making a notch for each string" process the same day the slotted pins was invented. With unslotted string pins the ball ends will seat much better on the bridge plate. With slotted pins, especially if the pins are made of soft plastic, the bridge plate will be chewed up.</p> The plate is part of the "Exp…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-07:2177249:Comment:1725642017-09-07T12:10:01.276ZLesterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Lester
<p>The plate is part of the "Expressions" electric pickup system. It's not the Stewmac plate. Yes, I am suspecting the sound is coming from the ball and plate and possibly the bridge pins. And, I am not so sure it is only the B string ball, but possibly any of the ball contacts. Only the B string pluck brings out the sound.</p>
<p>I just installed some Martin retro (nickle) 12-54 strings with the theory that nano-phosphor brass is too "bright" (the luthier let slip the word "harsh"). The…</p>
<p>The plate is part of the "Expressions" electric pickup system. It's not the Stewmac plate. Yes, I am suspecting the sound is coming from the ball and plate and possibly the bridge pins. And, I am not so sure it is only the B string ball, but possibly any of the ball contacts. Only the B string pluck brings out the sound.</p>
<p>I just installed some Martin retro (nickle) 12-54 strings with the theory that nano-phosphor brass is too "bright" (the luthier let slip the word "harsh"). The result was that the B and the G string produced the same kind of "harsh" sound. Yes the tone has changed, but the sound was also present on the G string. All balls were carefully checked for proper seating. What helped the G string was to loosen it and while applying tension to the string by hand and twisting the G bridge pin slightly, tightened up the string and the sound on G disappeared. This further supports my theory that the bridge pins are abnormally loose. It also supports the theory that the string ground has something to do with it.</p>
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<p></p> So, what is the "metal string…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-07:2177249:Comment:1726922017-09-07T11:39:57.140ZRoger Häggströmhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>So, what is the "metal string ground"? Is it a Stewmac brass "plate mate"? Or some part of the pickup system?<br/><br/>I know that a "plate mate" gives the guitar metallic trebles I really don't like. I also know that the surface for the ball ends are important for both volume and tone. A hard surface will give better attack and volume. Hard wood is better for the sound than any metal where the ball ends rest on the bridge plate.</p>
<p>So, what is the "metal string ground"? Is it a Stewmac brass "plate mate"? Or some part of the pickup system?<br/><br/>I know that a "plate mate" gives the guitar metallic trebles I really don't like. I also know that the surface for the ball ends are important for both volume and tone. A hard surface will give better attack and volume. Hard wood is better for the sound than any metal where the ball ends rest on the bridge plate.</p> Thanks everyone for the comme…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-09-07:2177249:Comment:1726912017-09-07T11:29:35.047ZLesterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Lester
<p>Thanks everyone for the comments so far. It's been a few days while I waited for the new bone saddle and an appointment with a local luthier. Here is what I have to report.</p>
<p></p>
<p>He didn't seem to think the sound I'm hearing is a problem, just "bright" strings.</p>
<p>Installed the bone saddle to the correct height.</p>
<p>Adjusted the relief.</p>
<p>Replaced strings with slightly heavier 12-53.</p>
<p>Cleaned the nut.</p>
<p>Inspected inside and out.</p>
<p>Checked that all…</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for the comments so far. It's been a few days while I waited for the new bone saddle and an appointment with a local luthier. Here is what I have to report.</p>
<p></p>
<p>He didn't seem to think the sound I'm hearing is a problem, just "bright" strings.</p>
<p>Installed the bone saddle to the correct height.</p>
<p>Adjusted the relief.</p>
<p>Replaced strings with slightly heavier 12-53.</p>
<p>Cleaned the nut.</p>
<p>Inspected inside and out.</p>
<p>Checked that all hardware was tight.</p>
<p></p>
<p>The last thing we tried before I had to leave was to install a small rubber donut at the ball of the string, letting the string ball rest on that instead of the metal string ground. That definitely affected tone, but it also got rid of the buzz. We agreed it wasn't a correct or permanent fix, but I feel we found a good focal point for further investigation.</p>
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<p>I've also noticed that the bridge pins seem very loose when there are no strings installed. There is back and forth play. If you turn the guitar over, they all fall right out (with no strings installed). I don't know if that is normal. However, with strings installed, all are tight and shouldn't be buzzing, but who knows.. I will try to replace or tighten them up. These and the ground plate and the string balls might be the culprit and I hope to have more feedback on it soon.</p>