Slightly lifting and warped bridge - should it be replaced now or later? - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T18:21:58Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/slightly-lifting-and-warped-bridge-should-it-be-replaced-now-or?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A142323&feed=yes&xn_auth=noEliya.
Without imputing impli…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-21:2177249:Comment:1422572015-01-21T15:57:06.983ZPeter Poyserhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PeterPoyser
<p>Eliya.</p>
<p>Without imputing implication of criticism to any Fine Manufacturer, which is something I always try to Avoid.</p>
<p>Its true to write that going back a few years, the Manufacturer concerned has had issues with Necks Moving Forward, and requiring Neck Resets, extremely early in the Instruments Working Life.</p>
<p>In my opinion, to Resolve this Costly Warrantee Issue, it appeared to me and indeed others, that they went through a period where Necks were subsequently encountered,…</p>
<p>Eliya.</p>
<p>Without imputing implication of criticism to any Fine Manufacturer, which is something I always try to Avoid.</p>
<p>Its true to write that going back a few years, the Manufacturer concerned has had issues with Necks Moving Forward, and requiring Neck Resets, extremely early in the Instruments Working Life.</p>
<p>In my opinion, to Resolve this Costly Warrantee Issue, it appeared to me and indeed others, that they went through a period where Necks were subsequently encountered, Apparently, Deliberately Over Set, which I presumed to be their Honest Attempt to Address the Issue of "Early Neck Resets".</p>
<p>Now here I'm giving you "an opinion" but I believe that many of the Type of Issues that I'm discussing here, are actually the Result of Broader Industrial Manufacturing Techniques, New Ways of Managing and Levering Up, Factory Output, which to some degree the Implementation of which, has adversely affected every single Manufacturer that has Embraced Them.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>For you.</p>
<p>If the Instrument is within Factory Tolerances and Plays Well.</p>
<p>Maybe you should be considering that an Unwise Temporary Exposure to Excessive Heat and alternatively, Periods of Cold accompanied by Low Humidity are the Causational Issues here.</p>
<p>Consider, a New, Higher Bridge with a Normal Saddle as a Correctly Sized Replacement that will provide Good Overall Geometry, (you have to Re-Glue the Bridge anyway and if its Warped, will it Warp Further?) Repair the Small Crack in the Top and Set the Instrument Up Well.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Are we there with a Plan?</p>
<p>There's a Brilliant Classical Guitarist.</p>
<p>Not too far away from me in the adjacent County.</p>
<p>Possessing the Same Name as a "Fish" that Swims in a "Stream".</p>
<p>And whose Surname also Directly Rhymes with that same word written above.</p>
<p>He left a Very Precious Classical Guitar out, overnight in his Car, during a Scandinavian Winter.</p>
<p>Listening to an Excellent Classical Guitar, and One of His Guitars, the Sound Difference is like Night and Day.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In Quality of Sound.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYwJaBBB8NM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYwJaBBB8NM</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>People do Silly Things all the Time.</p>
<p>Musicians are by No Means, any Exception.</p>
<p>You need to Watch the Music Below from 2. 57 in.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0W8p3TfhBk" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0W8p3TfhBk</a></p>
<p></p>
<p>And Realise the Problems we have to deal with, this side of the Pond.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Quote: "I thought you were going to be presenting it in iambic pentameter"</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>With my lack of Acting Skill.</p>
<p>I'm Afraid I would Murder Macbeth.</p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p>P</p>
<p></p> Yeah, I'm always torn between…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-21:2177249:Comment:1421672015-01-21T07:55:49.039Zeliyahttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/eliya
<p>Yeah, I'm always torn between keeping all issues that have to do with one guitar in one thread, vs. giving each issue its own thread. I figure with the latter, it's easier for other members to search (for instance if someone else wanted to know if they should reglue a bridge or not).</p>
<p></p>
<p>Here's more information. My friend has had the guitar for quite a while now, but I don't believe he's the original owner.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If indeed the crack is caused by a shifting neck block…</p>
<p>Yeah, I'm always torn between keeping all issues that have to do with one guitar in one thread, vs. giving each issue its own thread. I figure with the latter, it's easier for other members to search (for instance if someone else wanted to know if they should reglue a bridge or not).</p>
<p></p>
<p>Here's more information. My friend has had the guitar for quite a while now, but I don't believe he's the original owner.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If indeed the crack is caused by a shifting neck block that's been partially repaired, then the previous repair person didn't leave any traces behind. You'd think that someone who is capable of doing such a clean job would also also do a thorough job, but I'm extrapolating and speculating.</p>
<p></p>
<p>My theory, and I could quite possibly be wrong, is that the two issues are unrelated. We live in Chicago and it gets really dry here in the winters and the summers are really hot. My friend also admitted to not humidifying his guitar regularly, so a crack in a high stress area due to dryness seems plausible. As for the bridge, that could be my friend's fault or the previous owner. Perhaps the previous owner left it in a hot car for and the bridge started to lift ever so slightly, but not enough for a non-professional to notice. As time went by the bridge kept lifting and that's where we are now.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Both the crack and the bridge issue are very minimal. I can easily see how someone who wasn't looking for these things could have missed them.</p> Oh Oh.....
When you put the i…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-21:2177249:Comment:1423552015-01-21T07:23:31.837ZMark McLeanhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MarkMcLean
<p>Oh Oh.....</p>
<p>When you put the information in your two threads together it does start to look like a complicated issue. </p>
<p>The neck angle is off, and there is a crack in the soundboard parallel to the fingerboard extension. This sounds like it has had a major neck block shift at some time - a classic hot-boxed guitar scenario perhaps, which also caused the partial bridge glue failure? </p>
<p>I agree that the soundboard crack cannot be seen to extend all the way to the neck block,…</p>
<p>Oh Oh.....</p>
<p>When you put the information in your two threads together it does start to look like a complicated issue. </p>
<p>The neck angle is off, and there is a crack in the soundboard parallel to the fingerboard extension. This sounds like it has had a major neck block shift at some time - a classic hot-boxed guitar scenario perhaps, which also caused the partial bridge glue failure? </p>
<p>I agree that the soundboard crack cannot be seen to extend all the way to the neck block, but maybe it does, or once did and has been fixed?</p>
<p>Also, it is odd that the neck hasn't shifted forward as you would expect in that scenario. Instead, it has moved backwards. But necks don't spontaneously move backwards, do they? And then there is the fact that someone has installed an overheight saddle to correct the resulting action problem. </p>
<p>So, my dear Watson, it is obvious what we should conclude. This guitar suffered a heat stress which made the neck block pitch forward under string tension, cracking the soundboard, and also partly lifting the bridge. There has been an attempted repair, but the neck angle ended going a bit too far the other way, and part of the soundboard crack remained open. The bridge didn't get fixed (or at least, not properly), and the repairer bailed out and installed an over-height saddle just to get it playable again. At this point the owner put it on E-Bay and your unsuspecting friend bought it. He has loved his D-28 ever since, and doesn't have a clue about any of this. The news is really going to ruin his day. </p>
<p>OK, I am extrapolating from a couple of photos and I have a vivid imagination. But it is not like this stuff doesn't happen every day. </p>
<p>For example, my son travelled last week from Sydney to Amsterdam, with my Taylor guitar. The guitar never made it. The airline doesn't know where it is. Shit happens. </p> I checked for loose braces bu…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-21:2177249:Comment:1422552015-01-21T05:42:38.530Zeliyahttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/eliya
<p>I checked for loose braces but found none. I can stick the very edge of a .0025" feeler gauge under the bridge plate (front of it), but I don't think that qualifies as a loose bridge plate.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I forgot to mention that the guitar has an undersaddle pickup, and looking under the saddle, I found two shims. To be honest, I never installed pickups on an acoustic, so I don't know if the shims are necessary, but once the bridge is reglued, I will see if they are actually…</p>
<p>I checked for loose braces but found none. I can stick the very edge of a .0025" feeler gauge under the bridge plate (front of it), but I don't think that qualifies as a loose bridge plate.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I forgot to mention that the guitar has an undersaddle pickup, and looking under the saddle, I found two shims. To be honest, I never installed pickups on an acoustic, so I don't know if the shims are necessary, but once the bridge is reglued, I will see if they are actually necessary.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I think I mentioned that I started another thread about a small soundhole crack that this guitar has. <a href="http://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/yet-another-soundhole-crack-cause-and-repair" target="_blank">Here it is.</a> The consensus seems to be that the crack isn't caused by movement of the neck block, and I tend to agree. Other than that, like I said, the neck is overset, probably has been when the guitar was made, but since it's in an acceptable margin of error, they let it go like that.<br/><br/>With that being said, I'm happy to hear any other suggestions you guys have as to what I should check for.</p> I think we are all getting th…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-21:2177249:Comment:1422522015-01-21T04:11:07.844ZMark McLeanhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MarkMcLean
<p>I think we are all getting the feeling that there is something off in the geometry of this guitar. So it would be very prudent to closely scrutinize it for a problem with braces, or the neck block. </p>
<p>It is amazing how your eye can catch one thing that seems wrong, then closer inspection reveals the whole can of worms. But a D-28 is probably worth the effort, even if the plot thickens. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Hey Peter - thanks for the tales of the Bard. For a moment there I thought you were…</p>
<p>I think we are all getting the feeling that there is something off in the geometry of this guitar. So it would be very prudent to closely scrutinize it for a problem with braces, or the neck block. </p>
<p>It is amazing how your eye can catch one thing that seems wrong, then closer inspection reveals the whole can of worms. But a D-28 is probably worth the effort, even if the plot thickens. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Hey Peter - thanks for the tales of the Bard. For a moment there I thought you were going to be presenting it in iambic pentameter</p> Could there be any lift/disto…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-21:2177249:Comment:1421632015-01-21T00:11:09.063ZLARRY KLOSEhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/LARRYKLOSE
<p>Could there be any lift/distortion in the top because of the loose bridge? If the saddle was made with that condition it could be the reason for the extra height. I'd check for loose braces, too.</p>
<p>Larry</p>
<p>Could there be any lift/distortion in the top because of the loose bridge? If the saddle was made with that condition it could be the reason for the extra height. I'd check for loose braces, too.</p>
<p>Larry</p> I don't know if you saw my re…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-20:2177249:Comment:1423472015-01-20T17:55:38.501Zeliyahttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/eliya
<p>I don't know if you saw my reply to Mark, but yes, the saddle is indeed very tall and tilted. The action, measured at the 12th fret is 3/32" on the bass side and 2/32" on the treble side. A straight edge doesn't almost land on on the bridge, but overshoots it by a little too much. So I think the neck is over set. The neck itself is in good condition and I think I can bring down the action a little more and hopefully that'll help with the tilt a little bit.</p>
<p>I don't know if you saw my reply to Mark, but yes, the saddle is indeed very tall and tilted. The action, measured at the 12th fret is 3/32" on the bass side and 2/32" on the treble side. A straight edge doesn't almost land on on the bridge, but overshoots it by a little too much. So I think the neck is over set. The neck itself is in good condition and I think I can bring down the action a little more and hopefully that'll help with the tilt a little bit.</p> I dont need to add any to the…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-20:2177249:Comment:1421572015-01-20T17:27:22.191ZAndrewhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Andrew715
I dont need to add any to the consensus on regluing the bridge, but Mark McLean is right about the saddle being quite tall, and it is definitely very tilted. That definitely needs to be addressed. What is the condition of the neck? Could it be someone jacked up the saddle to deal with a backbow, or something like that?
I dont need to add any to the consensus on regluing the bridge, but Mark McLean is right about the saddle being quite tall, and it is definitely very tilted. That definitely needs to be addressed. What is the condition of the neck? Could it be someone jacked up the saddle to deal with a backbow, or something like that? Quote: "I think that a better…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-20:2177249:Comment:1423422015-01-20T16:25:45.472ZPeter Poyserhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PeterPoyser
<p>Quote: "I think that a better approach is "if it's not broken, don't fix it"</p>
<p>- Snipped for Shortness -</p>
<p>Quote: "the guitar plays fine and the bridge seems to be stable. I have definitely seen other repair persons take this approach."</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Reading this Thread.</p>
<p>Reminded me of the Soliloquy in Macbeth.</p>
<p></p>
<p><strong>"If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well It were done quickly."</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Shakespeare would stay…</p>
<p>Quote: "I think that a better approach is "if it's not broken, don't fix it"</p>
<p>- Snipped for Shortness -</p>
<p>Quote: "the guitar plays fine and the bridge seems to be stable. I have definitely seen other repair persons take this approach."</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Reading this Thread.</p>
<p>Reminded me of the Soliloquy in Macbeth.</p>
<p></p>
<p><strong>"If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well It were done quickly."</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Shakespeare would stay here overnight on his Travels between London Stratford-upon-Avon.*</p>
<p>And working opposite to where he slept, I would enjoy my lunch in an Alcove in which his Bed was once Placed.</p>
<p>"Other peoples approach's" are not always the best guide. There's nothing to be gained, by Driving a Car with loose Wheel Nuts.</p>
<p>Yet the amazing truth is that I have known Drivers, astonished as one of their Own Wheels, Pass their Car by, as they sped round a Major Roundabout.</p>
<p>Thus, Envisaging this Bridge, eventually flying past the end of the Players Nose, travelling towards the Headstock at Considerable Speed, requires the merest modicum of imagination.</p>
<p>The only remaining question to my mind is. How much of the Tonally Essential Spruce Top will be Dramatically Torn Out, Fibre by Fibre, as the Strings are Played under Full Tension when it Gives?</p>
<p>Frankly, to me, the most important thing that needs to be urgently done, is to have a Very Serious Conversation with the Owner of this Instrument, regarding the Basic Requirements of Normal and Essential Guitar Care.</p>
<p>I simply cannot help but feel, that this Guitar has long been suffering from the Complete Lack of Sensible, Precautionary Measures, and is now in need of Major Repairs, simply because it hasn't been Looked After as such an Instrument should be.</p>
<p>I would certainly be having a direct "Eyeball to Eyeball Conversation" with the Owner of this Guitar. In the first instance as to examining and analysing their approach to the responsibility of Guitar Care, as with this and other problems highlighted in another thread, it looks to me like entirely Avoidable Issues, Caused by Neglect.</p>
<p>My reason for this approach is to Directly Clarify the Problem. The Problem is Not actually the Cracked Top or the Warped Bridge or even the Lifting Bridge, although that might seem to be the case. The Problem is really the Owners Lack of Sensible, Precautionary Care, in Day to Day Use. The Repairs that are now Required, are Simply, Surface Symptoms of that Lack of Care, which is the Actuating Cause.</p>
<p>Highlighting and Clearly Explaining that to the Owner. Facing and Placing the Causational Neglects in an Unequivocal Light, with the Responsibility Shouldered Squarely where it really should be is Important.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here's the reason, WHY.</p>
<p>1. Without a Clear Diagnosis of the Real Problem, further Avoidable Repairs caused by this Underlying Issue are Completely Inevitable.</p>
<p>2. The Guitar was initially brought into you, for a Straightforward Setup. It is a Waste of Time and Effort, Attempting to Set Up this Guitar until these Needed Repairs are Accomplished.</p>
<p>3. The Owner appears to Not have Noticed, certainly Not to Have Mentioned, these Glaringly Obvious Faults. Is this Blindness a form of Avoidance, or even a Deliberate Ploy, as you could easily become Gradually Sucked into More and More Work on this Instrument. But feel Obliged to be Somewhat Constrained by the Expectations and Limits of the Costs first Discussed?</p>
<p>4. The Initially Anticipated Costs are Going to be Massively Higher, and that Point needs to be Clearly Reflected to the Owner, before undertaking any work whatever to this Instrument. He can then decide whether he wants to go ahead with the Necessary Repairs. But you have not expended, Time and Effort on the Instrument. Clearly the Instrument is Redeemable and will continue to be the Fine Instrument, Martin Manufactured, if the Work is Done Properly NOW!</p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><strong>"Behold, Now <em>is</em> the Accepted Time; Behold, Now <em>is</em> the Day of Salvation"</strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>P</p>
<p> </p>
<p>*</p>
<p>The Bard was friendly with John and Jane Davenant.</p>
<p>They were local vintners, and he stayed with them journeying between London and Stratford-upon-Avon. </p>
<p>Jane is the only name linked to Shakespeare Romantically, other than Anne Hathaway and the Davenant’s Son.</p>
<p>Also called William, and Shakespeare's Godson, he became the first Poet Laureate, and liked to suggest he was the Son and Not Godson to the Bard. Whether this was true, and he was actually both, remains an open question?</p>
<p></p> How far in does your feeler g…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2015-01-20:2177249:Comment:1423352015-01-20T05:37:17.400ZHoward Klepperhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
<p>How far in does your feeler go?</p>
<p></p>
<p>Is that maccassar ebony?</p>
<p>How far in does your feeler go?</p>
<p></p>
<p>Is that maccassar ebony?</p>