spruce pigmented epoxy? - FRETS.NET2024-03-29T01:28:07Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/spruce-pigmented-epoxy?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A163466&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDry pigments were my original…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-02:2177249:Comment:1634662016-11-02T21:36:53.856ZDavid Farmerhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidFarmer
<p>Dry pigments were my original plan. I didn't have many so I have some on the way. I also wasn't sure if liquid trans-tints would mess up the cure. It sounds like you have had them work too.</p>
<p>Even if I come up with my own methods, it's always worked best for me to start from where others have had success and move out from there. In this case the recipe ideas come from David Collins. Considering his experience and habit of always searching for a better way, It seems like a luxurious…</p>
<p>Dry pigments were my original plan. I didn't have many so I have some on the way. I also wasn't sure if liquid trans-tints would mess up the cure. It sounds like you have had them work too.</p>
<p>Even if I come up with my own methods, it's always worked best for me to start from where others have had success and move out from there. In this case the recipe ideas come from David Collins. Considering his experience and habit of always searching for a better way, It seems like a luxurious starting point.</p>
<p>I have a pile of fret work between me and this job but I wanted to get anything I might need for this new method in the mail. I'll try and post my experience with it if I can.</p> Yes, the thickening agents do…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-02:2177249:Comment:1633662016-11-02T19:23:12.311ZPaul Breenhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulBreen
<p>Yes, the thickening agents do give the epoxy mix some opacity. I have not colored epoxy with anything but the liquid color tints from Stew Mac (which work great) but I wonder why you couldn't use dry opaque pigments instead and just skip the thickener.</p>
<p>Yes, the thickening agents do give the epoxy mix some opacity. I have not colored epoxy with anything but the liquid color tints from Stew Mac (which work great) but I wonder why you couldn't use dry opaque pigments instead and just skip the thickener.</p> Thanks Paul.
I think opacity…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-02:2177249:Comment:1634612016-11-02T17:49:50.375ZDavid Farmerhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidFarmer
<p>Thanks Paul.</p>
<p> I think opacity is important so it won't look too dark.</p>
<p>Even the relatively fast high quality epoxies I've used I can imagine penetrating too far. Ether staining surrounding wood or finding a way around whatever is use for a dam, (tape, wood cleating, etc.). My hope is the tan filler might manage penetration, increase opacity, and even be a start on color that is ready to be bent in the right direction.</p>
<p> Some testing is definitely in order.</p>
<p>The only…</p>
<p>Thanks Paul.</p>
<p> I think opacity is important so it won't look too dark.</p>
<p>Even the relatively fast high quality epoxies I've used I can imagine penetrating too far. Ether staining surrounding wood or finding a way around whatever is use for a dam, (tape, wood cleating, etc.). My hope is the tan filler might manage penetration, increase opacity, and even be a start on color that is ready to be bent in the right direction.</p>
<p> Some testing is definitely in order.</p>
<p>The only tan filler West has on their site is #410. I remember seeing some of it before.</p> West System 105 resin is clea…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-02:2177249:Comment:1631772016-11-02T17:06:34.420ZPaul Breenhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulBreen
<p>West System 105 resin is clear and the 205 hardener is an Amber color, which lightens when mixed 5 to 1. Colloidal Silica, a thickening agent, is White and 105/205 mix becomes a Yellowish color and more opaque when the Colloidal Silica thickener has been added. I'm guessing, since David can't recall, the he is using something other than the Colloidal Silica for the mix to end up Tan. I have not used anything but Colloidal Silica, so I can't comment on the other additives.</p>
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<p>I…</p>
<p>West System 105 resin is clear and the 205 hardener is an Amber color, which lightens when mixed 5 to 1. Colloidal Silica, a thickening agent, is White and 105/205 mix becomes a Yellowish color and more opaque when the Colloidal Silica thickener has been added. I'm guessing, since David can't recall, the he is using something other than the Colloidal Silica for the mix to end up Tan. I have not used anything but Colloidal Silica, so I can't comment on the other additives.</p>
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<p>I have not tried epoxy as crack filler , so I have no first hand experience with the method but but I'm not sure why you would even need a thickening agent. I would intuitively think that it would harder to get the material into the tiny crack.</p> Thanks for taking the time Da…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-02:2177249:Comment:1633642016-11-02T03:12:24.780ZDavid Farmerhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidFarmer
<p>Thanks for taking the time David.</p>
<p> The specific color product info is a big time saver.</p>
<p>A long time ago I inherited a sticky box of West system boat building cast offs. I remember a tub of the flesh colored flour/filler. Looks to be #410 micro-lite filler I'll track it down. Great tip.</p>
<p>I'm going to smash some cracks in a dead body I have and start the learning curve. </p>
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<p>Thanks for taking the time David.</p>
<p> The specific color product info is a big time saver.</p>
<p>A long time ago I inherited a sticky box of West system boat building cast offs. I remember a tub of the flesh colored flour/filler. Looks to be #410 micro-lite filler I'll track it down. Great tip.</p>
<p>I'm going to smash some cracks in a dead body I have and start the learning curve. </p>
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<p></p> Epoxy would be my first choic…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-02:2177249:Comment:1632682016-11-02T01:44:42.851ZDavid Collinshttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidCollins
<p>Epoxy would be my first choice. Unless a crack is so wide that it needs a few grain lines, epoxy is my go-to preference for a lot of top crack fills these days. I typically use West System 105/205, the light fairing filler (colloidal silica or microbeads, can't recall). This thickening agent has a slightly tan color to begin with that makes for a nice starting point for an opaque spruce fill.</p>
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<p>Mixol tints are great for this, as they are quite opaque, and their white seems to…</p>
<p>Epoxy would be my first choice. Unless a crack is so wide that it needs a few grain lines, epoxy is my go-to preference for a lot of top crack fills these days. I typically use West System 105/205, the light fairing filler (colloidal silica or microbeads, can't recall). This thickening agent has a slightly tan color to begin with that makes for a nice starting point for an opaque spruce fill.</p>
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<p>Mixol tints are great for this, as they are quite opaque, and their white seems to work quite effectively when you need to lighten it up or make the base more opaque. Then maybe some TransTint amber, often the Kamel (tannish-brown) Mixol tint, sometimes some powder tints I have around. Just don't go too dark. I always tend to start off too dark. <br/><br/>I mix on the fly for these, often changing the mix and wiping it in to adjust as I go. the hardest part I find is often when you squeegee off the excess, there's always that one or two little pockets or gaps that come up, so you have to watch for those and refill as necessary. <br/><br/>For tight cracks like this, I think epoxy fills are the best and most appropriate solution on all by the most rare and valuable pieces. Tight crack, recent model mass produced 12-string, epoxy fill is perfect durable repair, and you should be able to make this crack near invisible pretty easily. </p> Thanks Hesh. Any input you or…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-01:2177249:Comment:1634602016-11-01T06:52:35.822ZDavid Farmerhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidFarmer
<p>Thanks Hesh. Any input you or Dave have is certainly welcome.</p>
<p>I usually use wood and hide glue for repairs but I do it because it’s frequently the best solution not because I’m dogmatic about it.</p>
<p>This crack, as with many others like it, is only. 0015”-.002” wide. At first glance it appears very dirty. A quick look though a microscope and a stream of air show it’s clean as a whistle. The dirty appearance is because, although it’s skinny, it’s a chasm the full thickness of the…</p>
<p>Thanks Hesh. Any input you or Dave have is certainly welcome.</p>
<p>I usually use wood and hide glue for repairs but I do it because it’s frequently the best solution not because I’m dogmatic about it.</p>
<p>This crack, as with many others like it, is only. 0015”-.002” wide. At first glance it appears very dirty. A quick look though a microscope and a stream of air show it’s clean as a whistle. The dirty appearance is because, although it’s skinny, it’s a chasm the full thickness of the top and it’s darker than the presidential election down there.</p>
<p>I use splints in many situations but it’s easier when a crack is wider and not anchored firmly to the bridge plate. The plate precludes manipulating the width of the crack with moisture in the top.</p>
<p>I could dig out a wide enough slot for a splint, but I just can’t think of an advantage if an epoxy fill can look as good or better. Even if future generations decide this 80’s 12 string is worth $100,000 it could be argued an epoxy fill was less invasive than the alternatives.</p>
<p>I think any filler used to fill up a .120”+ deep crack must not shrink. Here again epoxy seems to fit the bill. (so to speak) Gravity will apparently take The System Three epoxy I use to the center of the earth so I'm pretty confident it will flow into this crack. But, if it’s not opaque, light will go down in the hole and it will just look like a filthy crack. Even if it’s filled flush and has a matching gloss on top.</p>
<p>I don’t work with solid colors much so I have some powdered pigments on the way. They should be compatible with resin. Unlike a lot of the touch-up I have done, it doesn’t seem possible to sneak up on a good match. I’m hoping for some guidance on that aspect because visual success rides on it and I have to get it right on the first shot.</p>
<p>Again, If anyone has another way I’m willing to listen. </p> Wanted to add that Dave does…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-01:2177249:Comment:1631762016-11-01T03:30:50.433ZHesh Breakstonehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HeshBreakstone
<p>Wanted to add that Dave does the ep*xy... but I often do the prep and bjr work.</p>
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<p>If the crack is dirty... wood bleach can improve the appearance and make it more uniform for the ep*xy match first.</p>
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<p>We use s small, narrow, thin bjr (back joint reenforcement) segment the full length under the crack. It's cleated open, as it is after being at 45%ish RH or normal RH for your area for 48 hours or more. The idea is to not be forcing anything.</p>
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<p>A bjr is…</p>
<p>Wanted to add that Dave does the ep*xy... but I often do the prep and bjr work.</p>
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<p>If the crack is dirty... wood bleach can improve the appearance and make it more uniform for the ep*xy match first.</p>
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<p>We use s small, narrow, thin bjr (back joint reenforcement) segment the full length under the crack. It's cleated open, as it is after being at 45%ish RH or normal RH for your area for 48 hours or more. The idea is to not be forcing anything.</p>
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<p>A bjr is simply cross grain spruce as we see connecting the two back halves.</p>
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<p>Then the epoxy is applied and Dave can talk about how he does that.</p> Epoxy is a perfect solution a…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-11-01:2177249:Comment:1634572016-11-01T03:24:13.767ZHesh Breakstonehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HeshBreakstone
<p>Epoxy is a perfect solution and I can relate to the turned up noses at the notion, I used to feel the very same way.</p>
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<p>The technique as we use it was developed at Elderly and is as you suspect David, tinted epoxy. It's used when the crack is too tight but not closed AND forcing it closed either is not happening or would encourage cracking somewhere else when fixed and cleated.</p>
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<p>Dave Collins does all of ours for us and I have yet to try it but he's done many. I'll…</p>
<p>Epoxy is a perfect solution and I can relate to the turned up noses at the notion, I used to feel the very same way.</p>
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<p>The technique as we use it was developed at Elderly and is as you suspect David, tinted epoxy. It's used when the crack is too tight but not closed AND forcing it closed either is not happening or would encourage cracking somewhere else when fixed and cleated.</p>
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<p>Dave Collins does all of ours for us and I have yet to try it but he's done many. I'll vector him into the thread tomorrow when I see him for some tips.</p>
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<p>What I can tell you since I often am the one handing over the instruments to the clients for their approval is that it works like a charm, is easy to do, can be nearly invisible, and does not fight permanent dimensional instability and create other cracks later.</p>
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<p>Remember too that I'm the one who usually spells epoxy as ep*xy.... If I can change my mind .... well you know...;)</p> O.k. I'll settle for just a "…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2016-10-31:2177249:Comment:1634562016-10-31T16:14:20.052ZDavid Farmerhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidFarmer
<p>O.k. I'll settle for just a "great solution". :)</p>
<p>O.k. I'll settle for just a "great solution". :)</p>