What's this about the Feds going after Gibson? - FRETS.NET2024-03-29T06:01:26Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/what-s-this-about-the-feds-going-after-gibson?feed=yes&xn_auth=noThe following is part of a fa…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-21:2177249:Comment:722192011-09-21T13:50:49.330ZSTGuitarworkshttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/STGuitarworks
<p><span class="messageBody">The following is part of a facebook post by Chuck Erikson - the Duke of Pearl (his shell business supplies inlay to CF Martin and used to supply PRS Guitars. He was fined around $4k under the Lacey Act. When I briefly spoke to him at the Guild of American Luthiers convention it was my impression that he wasn't given an opportunity to be voluntarily compliant with recently amended laws.)</span></p>
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<p><span class="messageBody">The following is part of a facebook post by Chuck Erikson - the Duke of Pearl (his shell business supplies inlay to CF Martin and used to supply PRS Guitars. He was fined around $4k under the Lacey Act. When I briefly spoke to him at the Guild of American Luthiers convention it was my impression that he wasn't given an opportunity to be voluntarily compliant with recently amended laws.)</span></p>
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<p><span class="messageBody"> </span><span class="messageBody">Tennessee representative Marsha Blackburn received a response to her enquiry about the Gibson raids, as she discusses in a post on her website:</span></p>
<p><span class="messageBody"><a href="http://blackburn.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=260827">http://blackburn.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=260827</a></span></p>
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<p><span class="messageBody"><span class="commentBody">In the Sep. 19, 2011 response letter (<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" href="http://blackburn.house.gov/UploadedFiles/DOJ_-_DOI_response_re_Gibson_Guitar.pdf"><span>http://blackburn.house.gov</span><span>/UploadedFiles/DOJ_-_DOI_r</span><span>esponse_re_Gibson_Guitar.p</span>df</a>) from Christopher Mansour (DOI) and Ronald Weich (DOJ), she is reassured that:<br/><br/>"…people who unknowingly possess a musical instrument or other object containing wood that was illegally taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of law and who, in the exercise of due care, would not have known that it was illegal, do not have criminal exposure. The Federal Government focuses its enforcement efforts on those who are removing protected species from the wild and making a profit by trafficking in them.”<br/><br/>Unfortunately, since it’s now become commonly known among musicians that many instruments probably do contain questionable woods, owners of these instruments would have a hard time defending themselves as “unknowing” about the wood violations and would thus be open to seizure and criminal prosecution at the whim of any agent who cares to go after them....</span></span><span class="messageBody"><span class="commentBody">"</span></span></p>
<p> </p> So Ned what if you get a wrig…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-17:2177249:Comment:717162011-09-17T13:44:18.586ZFRANKhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PAUL
So Ned what if you get a wrighten sales receipt and photographic evidence it to justify your use of ERI or Brazilian Rose wood .. a few years ago I came acrossed an Ambounia Burl Table top that I rebuilt into 2 guitars I have kept a portion to show that it was a pre made table top before its conversion into the shred haul of Fame 1 because it still had its natural edge and 2 it is coming from another country into the united states .and 3 to add to the conversation piece .? you could try it with…
So Ned what if you get a wrighten sales receipt and photographic evidence it to justify your use of ERI or Brazilian Rose wood .. a few years ago I came acrossed an Ambounia Burl Table top that I rebuilt into 2 guitars I have kept a portion to show that it was a pre made table top before its conversion into the shred haul of Fame 1 because it still had its natural edge and 2 it is coming from another country into the united states .and 3 to add to the conversation piece .? you could try it with the Craigslist thingy Ive done good there from time to time Chances are, John, you are no…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-17:2177249:Comment:716242011-09-17T01:32:12.576ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p>Chances are, John, you are not using any wood in the frames that would be an issue. ( If you are, I want to see your stock! ) I'm confused about how this will come to effect my collection of guitars. I don't plan to sell anything that might be an issue in the foreseeable future but I also don't have any documentation on that I own that would account for the wood. The only instrument I have that might qualify now was inherited. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also wonder how this would effect "found"…</p>
<p>Chances are, John, you are not using any wood in the frames that would be an issue. ( If you are, I want to see your stock! ) I'm confused about how this will come to effect my collection of guitars. I don't plan to sell anything that might be an issue in the foreseeable future but I also don't have any documentation on that I own that would account for the wood. The only instrument I have that might qualify now was inherited. </p>
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<p>I also wonder how this would effect "found" old wood used in a new instrument. I recently saw an antique table on craigslist that certain looked like Brazilian rosewood. As a table it was in terrible shape but it certainly tempted me as a cache of B.R. What happens if a new instrument is made from pre-ban material that is second or third hand? There is no way to document the source of that material.</p> Scott,
Thanks for the your…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-16:2177249:Comment:715722011-09-16T21:00:27.877ZJohn Cartwrighthttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/JohnCartwright
<p>Scott, </p>
<p>Thanks for the your very informative response. I'm curious then how Fender, Gibson, Martin etc. are able to sell to vendors over seas without getting into trouble. Do they have to file for some sort of license or something? Or do they just hire armies of lawyers to try and wiggle through the red tape just to do business? <br></br><br></br>It's all so very murky for the average artistan/artists/craftsperson. I currently am only doing repair work, and I'm still green at that, but…</p>
<p>Scott, </p>
<p>Thanks for the your very informative response. I'm curious then how Fender, Gibson, Martin etc. are able to sell to vendors over seas without getting into trouble. Do they have to file for some sort of license or something? Or do they just hire armies of lawyers to try and wiggle through the red tape just to do business? <br/><br/>It's all so very murky for the average artistan/artists/craftsperson. I currently am only doing repair work, and I'm still green at that, but I do sell my oil paintings and I'm trying to expand my sales reach, so I should probably asses my paints, canvas and wooden frames. Scary.... </p>
<p> </p>
<p>All the best! Thanks. -John</p> Hello John and all,
I posed y…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-15:2177249:Comment:716832011-09-15T08:08:56.278ZScott Wackermanhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/ScottWackerman
<p>Hello John and all,</p>
<p>I posed your question to my family member who is a licensed <a href="http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/trade/trade_programs/broker/brokers.xml" target="_blank">CHB Customs House Broker</a> (a person who classifies import/export goods). This family member responded to the hypothetical question regarding whether ((insert your favorite contraband <span style="text-decoration: underline;">here</span> as stated in your reply above)) would equal Contraband? Yes, your guitar…</p>
<p>Hello John and all,</p>
<p>I posed your question to my family member who is a licensed <a target="_blank" href="http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/trade/trade_programs/broker/brokers.xml">CHB Customs House Broker</a> (a person who classifies import/export goods). This family member responded to the hypothetical question regarding whether ((insert your favorite contraband <span style="text-decoration: underline;">here</span> as stated in your reply above)) would equal Contraband? Yes, your guitar sold to the person in Sweden would equal contraband based on current classifications.</p>
<p>Moreover, If a banned material, ingredient, or other said banned existent becomes a processed amalgamation, the processing has no effect on the banned existent - The processing does not dispatch the fact that the amalgamation contains an illicit material. </p>
<p>That information is straight from someone who could blow a whistle or abed a cover up of importation or exportation of materials. For those who are preoccupied with politics, this person does NOT work for the government but is <a target="_blank" href="http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/trade/trade_programs/broker/brokers.xml">licensed by the government</a>. </p>
<p>Classification is a grey area as many other people have pointed out.</p>
<p>Owning an instrument that is not made from blood wood is important to me and my friends. Furthermore, some of us are genuinely concerned that our instrument, job, or life will be affected by the enforcement of <a target="_blank" href="http://www.iwpawood.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=36">CITES</a> or <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/plant_health/content/printable_version/fs_laceyact.pdf">LACEY</a>. This subject is intimately important because the import/export is a table subject in my house. Yet, I am not an expert, I simply have access to someone in the field. Nor am I an expert in Laissez-Faire trade economics or politics.</p>
<p>With all our questions on the table it is easy to see why this situation is an unstable and volatile circumstance. The uncertainty about what the government expects is one of the most troubling aspects because they determine classifications. A little less mud in the water would do us all well (no pun intended) :) This topic has proven to be an very interesting!</p> I have perused the actual Lac…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-14:2177249:Comment:716042011-09-14T19:44:16.104ZJohn Cartwrighthttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/JohnCartwright
I have perused the actual Lacey Act myself and my cursory findings are matching what I understand from points by a law professor quoted in a Wall Street Journal article regarding this Gibson search and seizure issue. I was a bit alarmed. I think the makers of this amendment to Lacey are honestly trying to make a bad situation better, but as Paul points out above, anyone can pay off someone and falsify records, so how successful is this law at doing the good it's intended to do? I'm not…
I have perused the actual Lacey Act myself and my cursory findings are matching what I understand from points by a law professor quoted in a Wall Street Journal article regarding this Gibson search and seizure issue. I was a bit alarmed. I think the makers of this amendment to Lacey are honestly trying to make a bad situation better, but as Paul points out above, anyone can pay off someone and falsify records, so how successful is this law at doing the good it's intended to do? I'm not suggestion having no legislature regarding the protection of precious plants and animals, certainly not, but only that the laws should be smarter. I didn't find from my readings, that the current law is sensitive to the reality that many, well meaning US citizens face in small business trade of antiques or hand crafted items etc. <br/><br/>On this note, I have a question. I noticed last night that certain woods and pearl/abalone etc. cannot be sold by StewMac to anyone outside of the US. So, what happens to me if I buy said mother of pearl, and Indian Rosewood, put it into a guitar I'm making and sell it to a man in Sweden? Would I be braking the law too? What about a woman crafting MOP jewelry in Montana sells a necklace through Etsy.com to someone in Mexico? Are there special permits one has to obtain in order to legally sell crafted items like these to other nations, or do you just do what you do and hope you don't get caught in the legal crossfire regardless of having bought what you believe to be legal MOP and Rosewood? I appreciate your thoughts. The official protection of re…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-13:2177249:Comment:715072011-09-13T22:57:19.495ZPaul Hostetterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulHostetter
<p>The official protection of resources flipflopped with different heads of state over the last ten years or so. But the real fact is that Madagascar is one of the poorest of the 3rd world nations, and any official position doesn't count for much. Some wood dealers fly into small airports, pay off officials there to look the other way while contraband lumber is loaded and flown out. A bribe is income—otherwise they have none. National Geographic ran an article last year showing one of the…</p>
<p>The official protection of resources flipflopped with different heads of state over the last ten years or so. But the real fact is that Madagascar is one of the poorest of the 3rd world nations, and any official position doesn't count for much. Some wood dealers fly into small airports, pay off officials there to look the other way while contraband lumber is loaded and flown out. A bribe is income—otherwise they have none. National Geographic ran an article last year showing one of the lumber camps in a park where rosewood was being harvested for illegal sale. The paperwork is meaningless: the documents can be forged, or simply purchased just like the cooperation of impoverished customs officials.</p>
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<p>Ned's right: what Madagascar needs is a decent government, but the cards are stacked heavily against that ever happening.</p>
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<p>I agree the Lacey Act, as it's being used lately, is questionable. But be careful of buying Gibson's version of what's happening.</p> yep it is a sad Day so this r…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-07:2177249:Comment:707102011-09-07T20:19:13.585ZFRANKhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PAUL
yep it is a sad Day so this retro active thingy what about my student guitar I built in school in regards to entering the US again once I finish touring the world with it ? back and sides are ERI purchased by the school I attended back in the Day
yep it is a sad Day so this retro active thingy what about my student guitar I built in school in regards to entering the US again once I finish touring the world with it ? back and sides are ERI purchased by the school I attended back in the Day U
nfortunately my memory is s…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-06:2177249:Comment:708892011-09-06T18:17:12.930ZRob Mercurehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RobMercure
<p>U</p>
<p>nfortunately my memory is shot due to illness so I'm sure but I believe the guitar brand was "Breedlove" - when I was senior electronic tech at BRM during my breaks I'd come out of my "cave" (electronics and stringed instrument's repairshop had no windows) and test guitars on the music store floor - and the back and side wood was a native western coastal one that I'll try to recall (perhaps something referred to as a "cypress" but not in the true genus?). Anyhoo, this guitar was…</p>
<p>U</p>
<p>nfortunately my memory is shot due to illness so I'm sure but I believe the guitar brand was "Breedlove" - when I was senior electronic tech at BRM during my breaks I'd come out of my "cave" (electronics and stringed instrument's repairshop had no windows) and test guitars on the music store floor - and the back and side wood was a native western coastal one that I'll try to recall (perhaps something referred to as a "cypress" but not in the true genus?). Anyhoo, this guitar was one of the most amazing new factory instrument's I'd tried and truly sounded wonderful. Also an older "Gallagher" came into the guitar shop - sort of a D/Jumbo cross in size - with black walnut sides and back and I'd have almost given one of my testicles for it (too bad that company was pretty much a single person and is long gone). Then there was the very simple Epiphone - a "real" Epi - archtop acoustic (no pickup) with sugar ("hard" or "rock") maple sides and back that the guitar repair man took in trade that I almost bought (I actually thought I was buying it but there was a miscommunication and he sold it elsewhere while I was getting my cash together). And of course the big funky "curlique" round soundhole archtop guitars that got the Gibson company started were made of black walnut.</p>
<p>Walnut sounds much like mahogany (Swietenia genus) and prior to WWII many instruments were made from it. War tends to standardize production practices (as well as remove the remaining red spruces and many of the more southern sitkas). And that's a good example - prior to the war the Picea Rubra was the "standard" top wood but somehow builder's survived the general loss of this wood. And the only reason that Koa is available is a 50 moratorium was placed on export from the Hawaiin during the 20s - I believe 1978 was the first year that large amounts were again available.</p>
<p>As often stated I come to instrument repair "sideways" - I'm good technically, have over 40 years of electronic experience (especially music/audio) and there were no competent people doing local repair. I worked on my instruments and found I could make money doing set ups for a local music store importing Yamahas. I mention this 'cuz if you think that wood substitution is an issue you should see what audiophiles debate, argue, and fued abou concerning vacuum tubes that are no longer made and the literally thousands of dollars they are willing to pay for little glass bottles I could purchase for less than $10 thirty years ago.</p>
<p>I think the real issue is over affluence - every culture on earth has managed to make instruments from available materials and if they survive long enough they become a cultural artifact. Look at two of the largest markets for guitars in the USA, rock and roll and bluegrass. Both of these are very recent, both are post WWII styles based on other earlier styles, and both have created demand for certain instrument type (and now with mass media they've become in many ways artifacts frozen in time). Prior to, during, and shortly after WWII was Gibson's "glory days" with Martin lagging since jazz/swing/big band demanded archtop guitars (with almost no rosewood used in these). Now electric guitars are the largest segment and it's the influence of bluegrass that pretty much standardized the rosewood Martin (and since I'm from the BG area the style wasn't even that popular around here until the mid to late 1960s - most folk listened to Country and Western with it's electric guitars). </p>
<p>It wasn't the lack of ivory that killed piano sales but guitars and cheaper electronic keyboards. We've done quite nicely without killing off whales (sperm whale oil was a key ingredient in automatic transmission fluids until the late 1960s). Fashions change, styles change, luthiery will no matter what as more and more land is cleared - the real question is will today's builders make it harder on tomorrow's by using up whatever resources they can get legal or not or help ensure that there's at least some sustainable supply for the future. </p>
<p>Rob</p> Last time I read much about t…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2011-09-05:2177249:Comment:704922011-09-05T18:39:09.065ZNed Knepphttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p>Last time I read much about this was a couple of years ago. At that time Madagascar was still exporting ebony (if I remember correctly) but the problem was poaching. The economic situation there is , to say the least, a disaster and the "government" is almost non-existent. To add to the confusion it seems that the government there has a habit of opening up exports of their timber when they need money. Many of the lumbermen that are cutting legitimate trees for export are also poaching just…</p>
<p>Last time I read much about this was a couple of years ago. At that time Madagascar was still exporting ebony (if I remember correctly) but the problem was poaching. The economic situation there is , to say the least, a disaster and the "government" is almost non-existent. To add to the confusion it seems that the government there has a habit of opening up exports of their timber when they need money. Many of the lumbermen that are cutting legitimate trees for export are also poaching just to stay alive. The job is extremely dangerous and the pay is almost nothing. What I read then indicated that the vast majority of it goes to China but that companies in India and other far eastern nations also prosper from the trees. In spite of the press coverage that Gibson's raid is getting now, only a very small percentage of the material ends up in North America. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The irony of the situation I mentioned earlier is that India's position seems to be that they are perfectly willing to export this material as long as someone in their country is making money on the manufacturing the parts.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I remember thinking when I read this stuff that what Madagascar needs isn't a world that won't buy their timber, what they need is a decent government. I agree that these forest need to be protected but I don't know how that is supposed to happen when the people doing the cutting will starve without the income and their corrupt government seem to be more interested in money than preservation of the trees anyway. As long as they keep cutting someone will keep buying and the Lacy Law doesn't keep China from consuming these trees. </p>