What to Build with an 18" set of Brazilian Rosewood - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T16:11:56Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/what-to-build-with-an-18-set?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A39695&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThose Guild 6-12's are mighty…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2021-03-28:2177249:Comment:2788262021-03-28T13:45:02.012ZChris Andradahttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/ChrisAndrada
<p>Those Guild 6-12's are mighty fine guitars! I have been lucky enough to own two, over the past 50 years</p>
<p>Those Guild 6-12's are mighty fine guitars! I have been lucky enough to own two, over the past 50 years</p> #2, Howard - I inherited a bo…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-13:2177249:Comment:402242010-09-13T17:46:53.528ZDoug Thttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DougT
#2, Howard - I inherited a body-shape designed by David Melly I think he called his "Modified Dread" but he referred to it as "Grandma Melly" everything slightly south-shifted.<br />
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I personally love the 25.5" for its clarity. I use a shorter string (24.625) length to emphasize more overtones whereas the longer for a snappier attack and more fundamental tone. The longer ones, unless on the multi-scale length where it's long on the bass and short on the treble, for my taste promote a more "stage…
#2, Howard - I inherited a body-shape designed by David Melly I think he called his "Modified Dread" but he referred to it as "Grandma Melly" everything slightly south-shifted.<br />
<br />
I personally love the 25.5" for its clarity. I use a shorter string (24.625) length to emphasize more overtones whereas the longer for a snappier attack and more fundamental tone. The longer ones, unless on the multi-scale length where it's long on the bass and short on the treble, for my taste promote a more "stage grand-piano" sound than a guitar tone. With these bigger bodies, I think folks are trying to keep the air volume consitent while, as Howard says, developing projection. If you've got two guitars with the same air volume/sound-hole but make a smaller top and deeper sides for one, in general, you'll get more projection out of the shallower one, but you'll also effect tone and such, so it's a balancing game.<br />
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Sounds like a great opportunity to try something new. The other thought, (I think it was mentioned before) is build two parlor sized guitars. Those small instruments can be really sweet.<br />
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Doug "1) I notice that some models…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-10:2177249:Comment:400442010-09-10T18:56:49.615ZHoward Klepperhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
"1) I notice that some models in this size have proportionately smaller soundholes. (to control boominess ??)<br />
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"2) Some models have very small upper bouts.They look like big pears!<br />
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"3) Some models have shallow depths; 3 inch sides?"<br />
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1) Complex issue. If other things are held equal, a smaller hole will yield a lower main air resonance frequency (Helmholtz resonance). But this is not the same thing as yielding more bass. Compared to a true Helmholtz resonator, the guitars main air resonance has…
"1) I notice that some models in this size have proportionately smaller soundholes. (to control boominess ??)<br />
<br />
"2) Some models have very small upper bouts.They look like big pears!<br />
<br />
"3) Some models have shallow depths; 3 inch sides?"<br />
<br />
1) Complex issue. If other things are held equal, a smaller hole will yield a lower main air resonance frequency (Helmholtz resonance). But this is not the same thing as yielding more bass. Compared to a true Helmholtz resonator, the guitars main air resonance has a broad bandwidth; it supports frequencies on either side of its peak. If the air resonance drops too low (it's often around G on the low E string; rarely lower than F#) then its support for mid-bass frequencies can be reduced.<br />
<br />
Also, the smaller hole will tend to make the bandwidth of the main air resonance narrower, and not as loud. Same potential problem. You might, for example get the low E sounding great, but the loss in the next higher notes results in a guitar that sounds weaker in the bass overall, as well as unbalanced.<br />
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But as far as boominess goes, I think it is less likely with a larger hole, not a smaller one, again because of the lowered and narrowed bandwidth of the main air resonance.<br />
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2) I think there is a connection between one's taste in this aspect of guitar design and one's taste in the form of human females. 'Nuff said.<br />
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3) Besides the ergonomic issue, the shallower guitar will hold less air and therefore have a higher air resonance frequency. But, this is far from a linear relationship, because the air couples with the top and back, and that coupling is weakened by making the box deeper. In other words, as you go deeper, you do get a lower air resonance, but not so much lower as you would with a rigid walled resonator. And as Paul said, it affects projection, another complex affair involving midrange frequencies and the directionality of the sound. It also tends toward boominess--hollow sounding bass lacking in mid frequencies overtones. I am principally concerned wi…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-10:2177249:Comment:400192010-09-10T04:31:54.338ZPaul Hostetterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulHostetter
<b><i>I am principally concerned with features of the construction that are disproportional to say just blowing up a Jumbo design.<br />
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I was thinking about a 25.5" scale as that fits most people comfortably. The J-200 I built was 26"; I am personally comfortable with that except that bending notes is a little harder; on the plus side, it helps bring the bridge closer to the middle of top which I think helps to improve stability and response.</i></b><br />
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It also helps with intonation, which is less…
<b><i>I am principally concerned with features of the construction that are disproportional to say just blowing up a Jumbo design.<br />
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I was thinking about a 25.5" scale as that fits most people comfortably. The J-200 I built was 26"; I am personally comfortable with that except that bending notes is a little harder; on the plus side, it helps bring the bridge closer to the middle of top which I think helps to improve stability and response.</i></b><br />
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It also helps with intonation, which is less important if you're bending notes!<br />
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<b><i>Other particulars:<br />
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1) I notice that some models in this size have proportionately smaller soundholes. (to control boominess ??)</i></b><br />
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The common knowledge is that smaller holes increase low-end response. I'm not saying I personally believe that, but a lot of people do.<br />
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<i><b>2) Some models have very small upper bouts.They look like big pears!</b></i><br />
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Like the early Super 400s? I actually like that look.<br />
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<b><i>3) Some models have shallow depths; 3 inch sides?</i></b><br />
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That's another can of worms and deserves its own thread. Shallower bodies allow more player comfort, first and foremost. (Remember George Gobel.) There are other attributes, such as projection, which are very important but also very subjective.<br />
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4) The Prairie State has a metal rod inside the body? (obviously not necessary, what was the thinking?</i></b><br />
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Good question. Several people have done this, notably Larsons and Fenders. Advantages were ascribed. In my estimation, they didn't mean much. Take them out and nothing happens.<br />
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<i><b>5) How about a cutaway? Don't see them much on guitars this size.</b></i><br />
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If you took an oversized 18" J-200 and put a 25.5" scale on it, and made the neck join at the 12th fret, a cutaway would give a good result. Twelve string, Dave? Don;t ge…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-09:2177249:Comment:399772010-09-09T15:29:47.473ZRobert Filippihttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RobertFilippi
Twelve string, Dave? Don;t get me started in that direction. Sounds like too much fun!<br />
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Thanks,Howard, this is good advice,generally. I am comfortable making my own plans. As a lifetime graphic artist, I have at my disposal several vector graphic programs (I use Corel mostly) and a 30" plotter to make full size drawings.<br />
If you click on my avatar, you will see My Page which shows a J-200-ish I made in 1997. The drawings on the page are my own.<br />
<br />
If anyone out there has similar drawings in cdr,…
Twelve string, Dave? Don;t get me started in that direction. Sounds like too much fun!<br />
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Thanks,Howard, this is good advice,generally. I am comfortable making my own plans. As a lifetime graphic artist, I have at my disposal several vector graphic programs (I use Corel mostly) and a 30" plotter to make full size drawings.<br />
If you click on my avatar, you will see My Page which shows a J-200-ish I made in 1997. The drawings on the page are my own.<br />
<br />
If anyone out there has similar drawings in cdr, ai, or other cad. for a large guitar, I would be interested.<br />
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Paul is taking this discussion more in the direction I would like it to go. I am principally concerned with features of the construction that are disproportional to say just blowing up a Jumbo design.<br />
<br />
I was thinking about a 25.5" scale as that fits most people comfortably. The J-200 I built was 26"; I am personally comfortable with that except that bending notes is a little harder; on the plus side, it helps bring the bridge closer to the middle of top which I think helps to improve stability and response.<br />
<br />
Other particulars:<br />
<br />
1) I notice that some models in this size have proportionately smaller soundholes. (to control boominess ??)<br />
<br />
2) Some models have very small upper bouts.They look like big pears!<br />
<br />
3) Some models have shallow depths; 3 inch sides?<br />
<br />
4) The Prairie State has a metal rod inside the body? (obviously not necessary, what was the thinking?)<br />
<br />
5) How about a cutaway? Don't see them much on guitars this size. One thought I have, if I may…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-08:2177249:Comment:399002010-09-08T18:20:29.713ZHoward Klepperhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
One thought I have, if I may be frank: if you are not comfortable building without a plan drawn by someone else, save the set and use it later. Also, some of the commercially available plans in various sizes are not very well-designed.
One thought I have, if I may be frank: if you are not comfortable building without a plan drawn by someone else, save the set and use it later. Also, some of the commercially available plans in various sizes are not very well-designed. Yeah, that's me holding th Ne…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-08:2177249:Comment:398722010-09-08T04:53:19.884ZPaul Hostetterhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulHostetter
Yeah, that's me holding th New Era, it belongs to a friend. There is not a huge history of guitars this large, so looking for plans is probably quixotic. One could make an 18" or 19" J-200, just blow up the plans a little larger and employ the principles so your bracing is adapted to and framed the desired bridge position. With regards to scale, there is a range of feasible scales for standard pitches, basically 24.75" up to 26.4". Beyond this, you get into other lower pitches for the strings,…
Yeah, that's me holding th New Era, it belongs to a friend. There is not a huge history of guitars this large, so looking for plans is probably quixotic. One could make an 18" or 19" J-200, just blow up the plans a little larger and employ the principles so your bracing is adapted to and framed the desired bridge position. With regards to scale, there is a range of feasible scales for standard pitches, basically 24.75" up to 26.4". Beyond this, you get into other lower pitches for the strings, or odd gauges if you want to keep to the normal E-to-E. I have large hands and am quite comfortable with 25.75" and 26.4" scales.<br />
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I have played several guitars in the zone, including the even more ginormous Big Boy like that Harwood. It's counter-intuitive that grotesquely larger guitars could still sound good, but I think they do. Every one I have played really sang—had balance, delicacy, richness, and balance.<br />
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If you decide against making a very large guitar, contact Klassen and see about swapping some wood. He could really use the extra-large set for something good, and could probably offer you something in exchange that would fit your tastes better. Guild's F-612 twelve string h…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-08:2177249:Comment:398592010-09-08T03:44:51.733ZDavehttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/Dave
Guild's F-612 twelve string had an 18" lower bout with 5" depth.
Guild's F-612 twelve string had an 18" lower bout with 5" depth. Thanks to all that responded…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-07:2177249:Comment:398242010-09-07T19:23:28.829ZRobert Filippihttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RobertFilippi
Thanks to all that responded (and to those who perhaps are about to.)<br />
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I think Ned Knepp's advice deserves repeating; Walter Lipton used to advise his wood buyers to refrain from using his master grade tops on their first guitars; any project that uses premium wood should have a reasonable expectation that the project will maximize the material's potential, tonally and aesthetically.<br />
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I can't use the material to make two parlors.The math doesn't work out for this set. In any case, I think there…
Thanks to all that responded (and to those who perhaps are about to.)<br />
<br />
I think Ned Knepp's advice deserves repeating; Walter Lipton used to advise his wood buyers to refrain from using his master grade tops on their first guitars; any project that uses premium wood should have a reasonable expectation that the project will maximize the material's potential, tonally and aesthetically.<br />
<br />
I can't use the material to make two parlors.The math doesn't work out for this set. In any case, I think there is still BR available in parlor sizes and God knows there's a lot of restoration work to be done on the vintage stock.<br />
I do appreciate the suggestion, however.<br />
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Tom, Thanks for the photos of the Harwood; I laughed out loud so hard, I won't abbreviate it:)<br />
Maybe that is too much of a good thing.<br />
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Paul, Thanks for the photos and info about the Prairie State.I haven't seen one of these in years.<br />
(Is that you holding the New Era by the wood stove?)<br />
I followed your link to Tony Klassen's website (pretty impressive)<br />
He also posted a YouTube of him playing a maple version:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/ARKNewEraGuitars#p/u/8/ffIkt3BVPrY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/ARKNewEraGuitars#p/u/8/ffIkt3BVPrY</a><br />
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I'm still looking for building plans and I'm still interested in hearing from anyone with experience in building this size and can address such issues as:<br />
scale length, soundhole placement and diameter, depths of sides, brace design.<br />
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Thanks, Robert Hey, more of a good thing wil…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-09-06:2177249:Comment:397802010-09-06T22:19:48.444ZHoward Klepperhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
Hey, more of a good thing will be better. It's just logical!
Hey, more of a good thing will be better. It's just logical!