Wood, Hide, or CA for Crack Repair - FRETS.NET2024-03-29T00:10:40Zhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/wood-hide-or-ca-for-crack-repair?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A168795&feed=yes&xn_auth=noi've seen this before (had to…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-28:2177249:Comment:1689132017-04-28T01:35:59.390ZWalter W Wrighthttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/WalterWWright
<p>i've seen this before (had to like subscribe and then quickly unsubscribe from the website to do so).</p>
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<p>eye-opening stuff, but i have to wonder both about the "creep" factor with moderate warmth of the various glues, and how the test would have gone had they actually <span style="text-decoration: underline;">clamped</span> the wood together (y'know, like folks usually do).</p>
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<p>i also wish that CA and fish glue had been part of the tests, and that they'd compared…</p>
<p>i've seen this before (had to like subscribe and then quickly unsubscribe from the website to do so).</p>
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<p>eye-opening stuff, but i have to wonder both about the "creep" factor with moderate warmth of the various glues, and how the test would have gone had they actually <span style="text-decoration: underline;">clamped</span> the wood together (y'know, like folks usually do).</p>
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<p>i also wish that CA and fish glue had been part of the tests, and that they'd compared regular titebond original to the titebond III rather than the frankly off-brand elmer's stuff.</p> they apparently use hot hide…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-26:2177249:Comment:1687472017-04-26T00:12:20.807ZWalter W Wrighthttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/WalterWWright
<p>they apparently use hot hide glue to "chip" <a href="http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/GlassChipping1.html" target="_blank">glass</a>, relying on its pulling and shrinking power to literally snap off pieces from the surface of a sheet of glass.</p>
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<p>i have a hard time imagining titebond doing anything like that (though to be fair i haven't tried it).</p>
<p>they apparently use hot hide glue to "chip" <a href="http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/GlassChipping1.html" target="_blank">glass</a>, relying on its pulling and shrinking power to literally snap off pieces from the surface of a sheet of glass.</p>
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<p>i have a hard time imagining titebond doing anything like that (though to be fair i haven't tried it).</p> Well. I read your post. I act…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-25:2177249:Comment:1686802017-04-25T19:31:19.671ZRoger Häggströmhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>Well. I read your post. I actually don't have a proven theory on why HHG do have the suction effect in spades you say it don't have and not TiteBond (both varieties). I'm more interested in the how and not the why...<br></br><br></br>What I do know is what the picture made by Per shows very clearly. And my own experience from both types of glues.<br></br><br></br>Water evaporation from any glue joint will certainly draw the two pieces together when the glue shrinks. But somehow HHG and Fish Glue will…</p>
<p>Well. I read your post. I actually don't have a proven theory on why HHG do have the suction effect in spades you say it don't have and not TiteBond (both varieties). I'm more interested in the how and not the why...<br/><br/>What I do know is what the picture made by Per shows very clearly. And my own experience from both types of glues.<br/><br/>Water evaporation from any glue joint will certainly draw the two pieces together when the glue shrinks. But somehow HHG and Fish Glue will shrink/draw the pieces together more and much harder compared to both the Titebond glues.<br/><br/>I don't think TiteBond Original will get better "suction" when diluted with water. I haven't tried it though. May be a way to make that bottle last longer...</p> I don't get the sense that yo…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-25:2177249:Comment:1688472017-04-25T19:08:33.362ZHoward Klepperhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
<p>I don't get the sense that you gave any consideration to my previous comment. Yes, when water leaves the glue, the glue shrinks. More water, more shrinkage. I suggested that the Titebond may have had less water in it, and more solids than the hide and fish samples. You seem to agree that shrinkage is from water evaporation. But does being thinned with more water make glue work better? It would be news if we could improve glue performance just by thinning it more.</p>
<p>Per may be a…</p>
<p>I don't get the sense that you gave any consideration to my previous comment. Yes, when water leaves the glue, the glue shrinks. More water, more shrinkage. I suggested that the Titebond may have had less water in it, and more solids than the hide and fish samples. You seem to agree that shrinkage is from water evaporation. But does being thinned with more water make glue work better? It would be news if we could improve glue performance just by thinning it more.</p>
<p>Per may be a meticulous guy, but it isn't clear what he tested in this test of a single sample of each glue on one kind of wood. He did not test the performance of any glue in an actual unclamped joint, which is what we were talking about.</p> I trust Per, he is a very met…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-25:2177249:Comment:1687462017-04-25T05:59:49.138ZRoger Häggströmhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>I trust Per, he is a very meticulous kind of guy. I'm sure he did the experiment the right way. Easy enough to try it out yourself anyway.<br></br><br></br>The shrinkage is why HHG and fish glue can suck two pieces of wood together. When water leaves the glue joint, the glue joint will shrink and the two wood pieces will be drawn nearer by the "vacuum" left behind.<br></br><br></br>About the only time I don't use HHG or fish glue is when I glue big patches of veneer on a thin piece of wood. Like gluing a…</p>
<p>I trust Per, he is a very meticulous kind of guy. I'm sure he did the experiment the right way. Easy enough to try it out yourself anyway.<br/><br/>The shrinkage is why HHG and fish glue can suck two pieces of wood together. When water leaves the glue joint, the glue joint will shrink and the two wood pieces will be drawn nearer by the "vacuum" left behind.<br/><br/>About the only time I don't use HHG or fish glue is when I glue big patches of veneer on a thin piece of wood. Like gluing a veneer over a big side crack or a big spruce patch under the top under the fretboard when the fretboard is a thin ebony veneer (on a Romantic guitar). The suction effect can buckle the wood like the wood on the picture. Titebond Original won't do that.</p> Interesting. But might it no…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-25:2177249:Comment:1686792017-04-25T02:52:42.327ZHoward Klepperhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
<p>Interesting. But might it not just be showing that the fish and hot hide samples had a higher water content? The titebond line looks rather narrow compared with the others. Were the amounts of glue in each line precisely measured? An alternative hypothesis about the result might be that the hide and fish glue were thinner and spread out more, and that is why they contracted more as they dried. This single test is suggestive about shrinkage, but it was not direct test of any of the…</p>
<p>Interesting. But might it not just be showing that the fish and hot hide samples had a higher water content? The titebond line looks rather narrow compared with the others. Were the amounts of glue in each line precisely measured? An alternative hypothesis about the result might be that the hide and fish glue were thinner and spread out more, and that is why they contracted more as they dried. This single test is suggestive about shrinkage, but it was not direct test of any of the glues' ability to pull a joint between two wood surfaces tight. </p> wow, nice!
if nothing else…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-25:2177249:Comment:1686782017-04-25T01:05:50.154ZWalter W Wrighthttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/WalterWWright
<p>wow, nice! </p>
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<p>if nothing else it suggests that fish glue is actually pretty awesome for situations where you wish you could use hot hide but the time window isn't there.</p>
<p>wow, nice! </p>
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<p>if nothing else it suggests that fish glue is actually pretty awesome for situations where you wish you could use hot hide but the time window isn't there.</p> Per Hallgren did a test with…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-24:2177249:Comment:1686752017-04-24T21:19:12.034ZRoger Häggströmhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>Per Hallgren did a test with four different glues. From the foreground to the background; <span class="style_2" style="line-height: 14px;">Titebond Original, Titebond Liquid Hide Glue, Lee Valley Fish Glue and Hot Hide Glue. A string of glue was put on the same size cedar wood pieces and left to dry overnight.…</span></p>
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<p>Per Hallgren did a test with four different glues. From the foreground to the background; <span style="line-height: 14px;" class="style_2">Titebond Original, Titebond Liquid Hide Glue, Lee Valley Fish Glue and Hot Hide Glue. A string of glue was put on the same size cedar wood pieces and left to dry overnight.</span></p>
<p><span style="line-height: 14px;" class="style_2"><a href="http://www.hallgrenguitars.com/Per_Hallgren,_Gitarrbyggare/Artiklar/Poster/2013/1/27_Lim_files/_MG_5220.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.hallgrenguitars.com/Per_Hallgren,_Gitarrbyggare/Artiklar/Poster/2013/1/27_Lim_files/_MG_5220.jpg" class="align-full"/></a></span>As the picture shows, only the fish glue and the hot hide glue shrunk with enough force to deform the wood. Even if any glue will contract two well fitted pieces of wood when drying, this experiment shows that HHG and Fish Glue will do a better job.</p> Back in the last millennium,…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-24:2177249:Comment:1687432017-04-24T20:52:30.451ZHoward Klepperhttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
<p>Back in the last millennium, in an era called the 1970s, a self-taught luthier who had 40 years of woodworking experience named Arthur Overholzer wrote a book about guitar making. Among the things he said was that if your bridge was well fitted to the top, and you used the right glue, you actually did not need to clamp because the glue would pull the joint tight as it dried.</p>
<p>The glue was called Titebond.</p>
<p>I don't know for sure where the current myth about the unique magical…</p>
<p>Back in the last millennium, in an era called the 1970s, a self-taught luthier who had 40 years of woodworking experience named Arthur Overholzer wrote a book about guitar making. Among the things he said was that if your bridge was well fitted to the top, and you used the right glue, you actually did not need to clamp because the glue would pull the joint tight as it dried.</p>
<p>The glue was called Titebond.</p>
<p>I don't know for sure where the current myth about the unique magical property of hide glue to clamp itself by pulling joints tight got started (possibly on a well-known guitar repairer's website?), but it is just that--a myth. Any glue that sets by evaporation of a solvent will shrink when it dries, and both hide and aliphatics are often capable of making an adequate "rub joint" that is allowed to set without clamps. But neither will make anything like an optimally strong joint that way. If anything, the advantage goes to the aliphatic, because first, it has more cohesive strength so if the joint is not tight it is stronger than hide; and second, it does not pass through a gel state where its elasticity will tend to hold the joint surfaces apart (recall that hide glues are rated by this resilience in their gel state). Back before aliphatics were in wide use, books on gluing wood used to advise retightening the clamps on a hide glued joint after about an hour, because the joint that was tight when the glue was liquid would become less so after it had gelled. This was the standard practice in many furniture shops.</p>
<p>Now, in the next millennium, we have people actually saying that a joint glued with HHG can be unclamped as soon as the glue has gelled, because of the magical property, unique to hide glue, of clamping itself. Hogwash! If the joint is not under a lot of stress, it may work, but it is far from optimal. And Titebond will also shrink and close the joint--some--as it dries, and make as good a rub joint as hide.</p>
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<p>As for Paul's question, below, the answer is because you want to create a permanent bond, and your strategy is to get it right the first time.</p>
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<p>Hide glue has certain advantages such as wicking well when thin, and being reversable in joints that are intended not to be permanent. It does not have the magical properties currently being ascribed to it many places on the net.</p> really good point about humid…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2017-04-21:2177249:Comment:1688272017-04-21T01:49:59.283ZWalter W Wrighthttp://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/WalterWWright
<p>really good point about humidifying dryness cracks back to "normal" rather than to "closed whatever it takes".</p>
<p>really good point about humidifying dryness cracks back to "normal" rather than to "closed whatever it takes".</p>