Bridge pin damage to an ancient guitar - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T11:30:01Zhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/bridge-pin-damage-to-an-ancient-guitar?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A135554&feed=yes&xn_auth=noNed, I completely understand,…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-31:2177249:Comment:1356872014-07-31T19:41:06.090ZAllen Chancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/AllenChance
<p>Ned, I completely understand, at least this opened my eyes to something ive never seen.</p>
<p>Ned, I completely understand, at least this opened my eyes to something ive never seen.</p> Frank, Thanks for the info, i…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-31:2177249:Comment:1354812014-07-31T19:34:34.326ZAllen Chancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/AllenChance
<p>Frank, Thanks for the info, i wasnt sure if it was a relevant fix, due to as you say the antiquity aspect. I also didnt realize that they arent that valuable. The nylon string issue is something that was never considered, and now that i see it, it probably could work, i may have to find a guitar like that and try it. Thanks again</p>
<p>Frank, Thanks for the info, i wasnt sure if it was a relevant fix, due to as you say the antiquity aspect. I also didnt realize that they arent that valuable. The nylon string issue is something that was never considered, and now that i see it, it probably could work, i may have to find a guitar like that and try it. Thanks again</p> I've delved into these antiqu…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-31:2177249:Comment:1356862014-07-31T18:36:33.052ZNed Knepphttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
<p>I've delved into these antique guitars a bit and the guitar's I've had are a good example of age NOT translating into high prices. They can be fun but they don't have the volume and play-ability of a more modern design and I wouldn't want one as my primary player. I think they can make good, fun "couch" guitars for noodling around but not generally something I'd use for a audience. They're not a "toy" ( anymore than any other guitar) but, I think, not all that removed from there either.…</p>
<p>I've delved into these antique guitars a bit and the guitar's I've had are a good example of age NOT translating into high prices. They can be fun but they don't have the volume and play-ability of a more modern design and I wouldn't want one as my primary player. I think they can make good, fun "couch" guitars for noodling around but not generally something I'd use for a audience. They're not a "toy" ( anymore than any other guitar) but, I think, not all that removed from there either. I'm sure that some of them are much more than that but I can't afford to play around in that price range. </p>
<p>In my case, I pay low purchase prices and keep my repair cost low too. I figure that I should be able to returned one to playable shape with not more than $100-$120 total investment or I've over done it. My guitars MIGHT be worth a couple of hundred at most when I'm finished. Of course I'm not figuring time in the total cost since this is a hobby for me. If I did, I'd probably make 25-50 cents an hour for my time IF I could sell one for "top" dollar. </p>
<p>In my case using the Power Pins to fix a bridge plate problem would blow my budget. A bridge plate does more than just hold the ball end of the strings and most of the instruments I've dealt with require a new plate for structural reasons so even a set of Power Pins at half the cost wouldn't help me anyway. </p>
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<p>I don't hesitate to modify one of my purchases if I think it will make it more playable. They will probably never be worth much so it's not a great loss to the world of guitar collecting and, I like to think, may enhance the world of guitars just a bit by making a guitar usable again even if it's no longer original. Because of that attitude, the idea of using a modern device like the Power Pins on an antique doesn't particularly bother me. That said, I doubt if I would do it simply because I wouldn't like the look very much. I also think the volume of these small guitars is inhibited enough without lowering the string break angle so my personal take would be to just fix the bridge plate and keep the regular pins. </p> Allen -
First, as I mentioned…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-31:2177249:Comment:1355922014-07-31T06:43:00.885ZFrank Fordhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/FrankFord
<p>Allen -</p>
<p>First, as I mentioned, I don't think that repairing the bridge plate is particularly important on this guitar. It's probably strong enough as it is to handle the low tension of nylon strings, and there are so many other parts of the instrument that could use attention. If you're taking things apart to work on the inside, then replacing the plate is logical and easy. Otherwise,I'd bet that it can handle the tension of nylon strings just as it is. </p>
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<p>So, no, I…</p>
<p>Allen -</p>
<p>First, as I mentioned, I don't think that repairing the bridge plate is particularly important on this guitar. It's probably strong enough as it is to handle the low tension of nylon strings, and there are so many other parts of the instrument that could use attention. If you're taking things apart to work on the inside, then replacing the plate is logical and easy. Otherwise,I'd bet that it can handle the tension of nylon strings just as it is. </p>
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<p>So, no, I wouldn't consider Power Pins here - they are obviously from a different era and would look pretty nasty on such an antique. Since there isn't a problem for them to solve, I see no benefit possible. In my opinion, such a visible modern addition violates the only thing the instrument has to offer - antiquity. </p>
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<p>You mention that you offer a noninvasive fix to a problem on an old and valuable instrument. You might be interested to know that while the majority of these Romantic era production instruments are indeed antiques, they are not generally of high value, even in excellent condition. So, we often let them appear to suffer with injuries that might ordinarily be compelling to fix on a ten-year-old lower-end Martin guitar. Because they are basically obsolete, as a population, they get very little if any real playing time. So, while the Power Pins could easily be removed, their basic function isn't likely to be needed in any real sense.</p>
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<p>Also, I wonder about using nylon strings with Power Pins, whether they are the sets with ball ends or plain ones on which you'd tie big knots or beads. Seems unlikely to be easy to handle. Is there a nylon string guitar application for Power Pins?</p>
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<p></p> Im sorry that you see it that…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-31:2177249:Comment:1353732014-07-31T02:47:58.238ZAllen Chancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/AllenChance
<p>Im sorry that you see it that way, i feel like im possibly helping a situation that could be very costly to repair(perhaps not), with an inexpensive and non invasive fix, to an old and valuable instrument. If im wrong, i want to know it, and why, i dont know everything, never claimed to, thats why i ask questions. I have very little hopes of selling anything here, but it is a valuable resource to me, but as a promotion, its virtually worthless. I think im allowed to ask relevant questions,…</p>
<p>Im sorry that you see it that way, i feel like im possibly helping a situation that could be very costly to repair(perhaps not), with an inexpensive and non invasive fix, to an old and valuable instrument. If im wrong, i want to know it, and why, i dont know everything, never claimed to, thats why i ask questions. I have very little hopes of selling anything here, but it is a valuable resource to me, but as a promotion, its virtually worthless. I think im allowed to ask relevant questions, its your choice as to engage in a conversation, IMHO. Promotion would be offering him a discount to buy them,.</p> Frank, not to belabor the poi…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-31:2177249:Comment:1353712014-07-31T00:03:34.698ZAllen Chancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/AllenChance
<p>Frank, not to belabor the point, but are you saying that its "inappropriate" to use Power Pins , in this case, for structural, cosmetic or antique reasons. Do you think it wouldnt solve this problem, all other considerations aside? </p>
<p>Frank, not to belabor the point, but are you saying that its "inappropriate" to use Power Pins , in this case, for structural, cosmetic or antique reasons. Do you think it wouldnt solve this problem, all other considerations aside? </p> It's common to see this type…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-30:2177249:Comment:1352752014-07-30T17:27:11.133ZPaul Breenhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulBreen
<p>It's common to see this type of damage in these old parlor instruments from incorrect string choice. As Frank has pointed out, these would have originally been designed for gut strings. Through ignorance, people put on steel strings and it's slow death. Silk and steel is even too heavy and the little Brass ball ends will tear up a bridge plate in no time. They are often made from Spruce or other soft wood and won't stand a chance. They won't play in tune with steel either. Gut strung designs…</p>
<p>It's common to see this type of damage in these old parlor instruments from incorrect string choice. As Frank has pointed out, these would have originally been designed for gut strings. Through ignorance, people put on steel strings and it's slow death. Silk and steel is even too heavy and the little Brass ball ends will tear up a bridge plate in no time. They are often made from Spruce or other soft wood and won't stand a chance. They won't play in tune with steel either. Gut strung designs would have a straight across saddle, so there is no compensation. My favorite strings for these instruments are Aquila Nylgut "Alabastro" superior tension. Elderly sells them and I imagine other vendors do as well.</p>
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<p>I was going to just post a picture of the ball ends I use for these strings (they don't come with any) but I thought it would be relevant to the thread to post pictures of similar damage to a bridge plate from steel string abuse and how I went about dealing with it.</p>
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<p>This is my 1907 Washburn style 15, the pictures pretty much explain the problem and fix. My situation was a bit tougher nut to crack, it has a bridge plate/ brace that spans all the way across the lower bout, I didn't want to pull the back to replace it.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167748399?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167748399?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>The strategy was to clean up the just the area with the damage and leave the rest alone. I did this by feel through the sound hole chipping away and then sanding with a tool I made in about two minutes.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167748459?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167748459?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>The long piece of plywood would follow the edge of the bridge plate and top, eventually giving me a straight edge where the damage was removed.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167748666?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167748666?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>I festered for a moment and decided to make a Maple plywood patch for the fill. The patch is quite minimal and I didn't think it would hold up over time using lumber for this. The bridge plate in this instrument is Spruce, I knew I didn't want to use that. Next couple of shots show the process of making a maple plywood patch from Maple veneer. It was glued up with hot hide glue.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167764267?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167764267?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167764292?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167764292?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167778992?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167778992?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>It took me a while, trial and error to shape the patch into a reasonable fit. I glued it in with hot hide glue so the repair could be reversed if anybody down the pike decides to do so. (That won't happen until they pry it from my cold dead fingers though). The Red light is from an infrared bulb to warm things up along with the light bulb inside to heat from in there too.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779228?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779228?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779320?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779320?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a></p>
<p>There where some small voids after the patch was placed. I filled them with West System epoxy, none of which contributes to gluing the bridge plate to the Spruce top. I wanted something tough for the job and this worked quite well.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779339?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779339?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>Here it is drilled and ready for strings.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779368?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779368?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>I went to a store that sold beads to find a suitable ball end for the Nylgut strings I would use. I found some Hematite beads and thought they would be a good one to try. They are metal (and yes magnetic) and I felt they would make good sonic contact, the round shape would also be non damaging to the bridge plate. The smallest ones I could find at the time where 1/4", a bit too big to go through the bridge pin holes but I wanted to try them anyway, I would just string up through the sound hole. The 1/4 inchers are pictured.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779394?profile=original"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2167779394?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"/></a>I was good with this until I had to change strings again and went searching for smaller Hematite beads. I found some that where 11/64" and would just go through the bridge pin holes.</p>
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<p>You need to pay attention if you go out and buy some beads. The hematite ones are solid but most metal beads are made as hollow spheres and can cut your strings. The drilled hole needs to be smooth, no sharp edges. The hematite beads are perfect, they are ready to go right out of the package. A pack of 50 was only a few bucks and I use them now as my bead of choice when setting up an old instrument with plastic strings that have no ball end.</p>
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<p>Kerry, I think if it was me, I would pull the bridge plate on your project and replace it. You might consider the Nylgut strings for it as well, they sound great on my Washburn but there are many other choices available as well. Pretty much anything suitable for a classical guitar would work. Avoid any steel or silk and steel though...bad.</p>
<p></p> Thanks for the info Frank, ne…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-30:2177249:Comment:1353672014-07-30T16:04:02.063ZAllen Chancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/AllenChance
<p>Thanks for the info Frank, never seen that before. Im curious, did you ever do any more tests with the Power Pins? As I remember it, the tests you ran really didnt show any degradation in the sound, or any improvement, is that correct? I thought that doing a blind test that you proposed was a good idea, where the pins were covered, so the player couldnt see which ones were in the guitar.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info Frank, never seen that before. Im curious, did you ever do any more tests with the Power Pins? As I remember it, the tests you ran really didnt show any degradation in the sound, or any improvement, is that correct? I thought that doing a blind test that you proposed was a good idea, where the pins were covered, so the player couldnt see which ones were in the guitar.</p> Originally, those would have…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-30:2177249:Comment:1353662014-07-30T07:52:40.313ZFrank Fordhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/FrankFord
<p>Originally, those would have been gut strings, but these days we substitute nylon. The others are nylon core wound strings, completing the so-called "folk nylon" set. They're supplied with slightly different ball ends than the usual steel strings, but otherwise the same as regular tie-on classical strings. </p>
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<p>That style of guitar is very delicate and predates the use of steel strings, so I'd say it would be inappropriate to use the Power Pins on such an antique.</p>
<p>Originally, those would have been gut strings, but these days we substitute nylon. The others are nylon core wound strings, completing the so-called "folk nylon" set. They're supplied with slightly different ball ends than the usual steel strings, but otherwise the same as regular tie-on classical strings. </p>
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<p>That style of guitar is very delicate and predates the use of steel strings, so I'd say it would be inappropriate to use the Power Pins on such an antique.</p> Something puzzles me, looks…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-30:2177249:Comment:1352692014-07-30T01:16:17.722ZAllen Chancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/AllenChance
<p>Something puzzles me, looks like there are 3 nylon strings, how does that work?</p>
<p>Something puzzles me, looks like there are 3 nylon strings, how does that work?</p>