Introduction and setup question - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T10:21:01Zhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/introduction-and-setup-question?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A135030&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=no"But is the difference notice…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-11:2177249:Comment:1350302014-07-11T00:41:06.075ZThomas Jameshttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/ThomasJames
<p>"But is the difference noticeable?"</p>
<p>On a Fender with the old 7.25 radius; yes it is if you try to bend notes, epecially on the high register frets (12th and up). The notes will choke out unless you have high enough action. The Gibson 12ish" Radii eliminate that problem and allow lower action for bender guys.You can feel it - if you change it on a re-fret job... which can be good or bad according to your desired feel. I have changed the radius on few guitars and regretted it.…</p>
<p>"But is the difference noticeable?"</p>
<p>On a Fender with the old 7.25 radius; yes it is if you try to bend notes, epecially on the high register frets (12th and up). The notes will choke out unless you have high enough action. The Gibson 12ish" Radii eliminate that problem and allow lower action for bender guys.You can feel it - if you change it on a re-fret job... which can be good or bad according to your desired feel. I have changed the radius on few guitars and regretted it. Currently, I try to accept my guitars for who they are :) Tom</p> So I looked at the neck. With…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-10:2177249:Comment:1351342014-07-10T22:05:06.086Zsteven gallagherhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/stevengallagher
<p>So I looked at the neck. With no relief, my straight edge rested on frets 2 and 20. I sanded down the extension area so that the straight edge rested on 2 and 14 (it doesn't reach from 1 to 20). It didn't help the buzzing, which has always been primarily on the 1st string. </p>
<p>I next checked frets 1-14 with a fret rocker and found that 10 and 13 were slightly high. Sanded them level, did a quick crowning, and changed the strings. It plays really good now with no buzzing. Due to the small…</p>
<p>So I looked at the neck. With no relief, my straight edge rested on frets 2 and 20. I sanded down the extension area so that the straight edge rested on 2 and 14 (it doesn't reach from 1 to 20). It didn't help the buzzing, which has always been primarily on the 1st string. </p>
<p>I next checked frets 1-14 with a fret rocker and found that 10 and 13 were slightly high. Sanded them level, did a quick crowning, and changed the strings. It plays really good now with no buzzing. Due to the small amount of sanding I did on 10 and 13, I suspect it was a string problem all along.</p>
<p></p> Thanks Paul, That's pretty mu…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-04:2177249:Comment:1350852014-07-04T02:07:24.541ZRussell Vancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>Thanks Paul, That's pretty much it.</p>
<p>Steven,</p>
<p>What Paul said, you need to do a lot more reading and web research before musing here - time used talking is time not spent doing business and solving extant problems - maybe you can hook up with other theorists on some of the more esoteric forums which cater for advanced thinking. Or maybe a smarter guy than I can help you out here.</p>
<p>The guitar bridges you allude to with adjustable saddle heights are called FENDERS - get one…</p>
<p>Thanks Paul, That's pretty much it.</p>
<p>Steven,</p>
<p>What Paul said, you need to do a lot more reading and web research before musing here - time used talking is time not spent doing business and solving extant problems - maybe you can hook up with other theorists on some of the more esoteric forums which cater for advanced thinking. Or maybe a smarter guy than I can help you out here.</p>
<p>The guitar bridges you allude to with adjustable saddle heights are called FENDERS - get one and knock yourself out. Tell us how it went.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Rusty.</p> That can happen. When I was m…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-04:2177249:Comment:1348092014-07-04T01:31:40.097ZRick Rubinhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RickRubin
<p>That can happen. When I was more of a newby in the trade I actually caused that issue until I got enough feedback and experience to anticipate it. What leaves me scratching my head though is this shouldn't be an issue unless major resurfacing of the fret board was done. If the fingerboard is in good shape and it's a simple re-fret it shouldn't happen.</p>
<p>That can happen. When I was more of a newby in the trade I actually caused that issue until I got enough feedback and experience to anticipate it. What leaves me scratching my head though is this shouldn't be an issue unless major resurfacing of the fret board was done. If the fingerboard is in good shape and it's a simple re-fret it shouldn't happen.</p> TOM's do not have nuts. They…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-04:2177249:Comment:1350842014-07-04T00:39:26.234ZPaul Verticchiohttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulVerticchio
<p>TOM's do not have nuts. They have saddles. Nomenclature is vitally important to the craft.</p>
<p>There may be ones out there that adjust in the vertical plane, but.... here's where you have to do the research. Do as we all do and spend a couple of hours searching the web for hardware spec's.</p>
<p>All of your interesting, albeit unconventional, 'theories' could take volumes to sort through and respond to. Most of the folks qualified to reply to your questions (and they're limited) are also…</p>
<p>TOM's do not have nuts. They have saddles. Nomenclature is vitally important to the craft.</p>
<p>There may be ones out there that adjust in the vertical plane, but.... here's where you have to do the research. Do as we all do and spend a couple of hours searching the web for hardware spec's.</p>
<p>All of your interesting, albeit unconventional, 'theories' could take volumes to sort through and respond to. Most of the folks qualified to reply to your questions (and they're limited) are also full time luthiers who also run businesses and their time is extremely valuable. Essentially, each response you receive is like a $50-$100 gift.</p>
<p>I suggest you become familiar with a local tech or luthier and discuss your ideas. He or she can help you sort through the ideas and demonstrate, right on the spot, the outcome. Alternatively, they can demonstrate why your theories may fail, you'll see it right before your eyes and possibly rethink your strategies.</p>
<p>The depth of knowledge needed to interpret and properly respond to "theoretical applications" without having the instrument 'right in front of us' becomes difficult if not impossible at some point. We've given that message to scores of posters. It's simply a fact. I believe we've reached that point with your post, and seeking a 'hands on' tutor will be the very best way for you to explore and execute your goals.</p>
<p>It would be great, after you find a local to guide you, if you could provide us with a write up of what you tried and how it worked out.</p>
<p>Great hunting and best of luck :)</p> Hi Rusty,
You know what I thi…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-04:2177249:Comment:1349882014-07-04T00:12:45.225Zsteven gallagherhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/stevengallagher
<p>Hi Rusty,</p>
<p>You know what I think would be fun to play with is a TOM-type bridge that has adjustable nuts in the vertical direction. You could figure out what the best string heights are for a particular guitar before you start filing away on the real bridge. Anyone seen such a thing?</p>
<p>Hi Rusty,</p>
<p>You know what I think would be fun to play with is a TOM-type bridge that has adjustable nuts in the vertical direction. You could figure out what the best string heights are for a particular guitar before you start filing away on the real bridge. Anyone seen such a thing?</p> Hi Rick,
The string height an…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-03:2177249:Comment:1348052014-07-03T23:24:41.938Zsteven gallagherhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/stevengallagher
<p>Hi Rick,</p>
<p>The string height and relief are about the same as they were before the refret. I believe the problem is due to a rising tongue / not sanding any falloff into the upper frets . My 18" ruler runs into the upper frets when I slide it down the neck. I should have some time this weekend to look at it.</p>
<p>Hi Rick,</p>
<p>The string height and relief are about the same as they were before the refret. I believe the problem is due to a rising tongue / not sanding any falloff into the upper frets . My 18" ruler runs into the upper frets when I slide it down the neck. I should have some time this weekend to look at it.</p> HI Steve,
The theory of all t…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-03:2177249:Comment:1344712014-07-03T03:14:30.450ZRussell Vancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>HI Steve,</p>
<p>The theory of all this is well done everywhere, most of what you are talking about can be done with a ruler and the side of a straight wine bottle (which we have rolling around from time to time) , which visually simulates what happens when you bend a string around a cylinder. Even if the string spread is parallel it still results in bending a straight string around a cylinder or cone. The only practical way to get around this is to have a flat fingerboard. </p>
<p>Low…</p>
<p>HI Steve,</p>
<p>The theory of all this is well done everywhere, most of what you are talking about can be done with a ruler and the side of a straight wine bottle (which we have rolling around from time to time) , which visually simulates what happens when you bend a string around a cylinder. Even if the string spread is parallel it still results in bending a straight string around a cylinder or cone. The only practical way to get around this is to have a flat fingerboard. </p>
<p>Low actions are personal choice but still conform to the laws of physics and geometry. particularly when sting bending in the higher fret numbers is required.</p>
<p>We use compounding and drop away to allow heavy bending in the high number frets with-out choking or losing string energy as the strings foul the following frets. </p>
<p>Practically, and by way of my own choice, its a lot quicker to just plug in, bend the strings and work out what compounding is required for a particular player's action height, rather than work out the missile science on a computer and apply it to the frets. But if you have the time and the inclination. it's a free world. The Plek dudes have already done this and you may find something on "the tube" that will enlighten you further. </p>
<p>Anyway, If you need to validate this stuff just build a test bed on your bench top - it takes a few parts and a couple of hours and provides endless hours of fun. You can also test out your programs/simulations against a real world model. It also protects your regular instrument from being Frankensteined.</p>
<p>Good luck on this one Steve, tell us how you went.</p>
<p>Rusty. </p> Rusty,
Thanks for your detail…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-02:2177249:Comment:1345652014-07-02T23:55:08.879Zsteven gallagherhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/stevengallagher
<p>Rusty,</p>
<p>Thanks for your detailed reply.</p>
<p>In Erlewine's book, where he discusses fixed vs. compound radius, he focuses on the difference it makes when bending strings. Tom's reply got me thinking and I now see that a compound radius is the theoretically optimum way to build a neck for lowest action IF the string spread at the bridge is larger than at the nut, which is virtually always true. But is the difference noticeable?</p>
<p>I wrote a program to calculate the deviation of…</p>
<p>Rusty,</p>
<p>Thanks for your detailed reply.</p>
<p>In Erlewine's book, where he discusses fixed vs. compound radius, he focuses on the difference it makes when bending strings. Tom's reply got me thinking and I now see that a compound radius is the theoretically optimum way to build a neck for lowest action IF the string spread at the bridge is larger than at the nut, which is virtually always true. But is the difference noticeable?</p>
<p>I wrote a program to calculate the deviation of the 1st string from it's ideal (non-vibrating) path for a 12" fixed radius neck and bridge. For a string spread of 1 7/16" at the nut and 2 1/16" at the bridge, the path dips .011" below the "straight" path at the 12th fret. In other words, if you had a bridge with a 12" radius and spring spread the same as the nut, a perfectly straight neck could have the action set to .011" at every fret. If the bridge was changed to 12" radius and 2 1/16" spread, the string would just brush the 12th fret. </p>
<p>BTW, I ordered Hideo's book. I used to frequent his shop in Oakland in the early '70s. My impression was that he did alot of work on band instruments. He definitely had a bunch of 3/4 violins around and also wind instruments IIRC.</p>
<p>Also, the unnotched TOMs won't really work for my experiment. To get a spring spread of 1 7/16", the 1 and 6 strings would have to share a nut with 2 and 5, which would be right on the inner edge of that nut.</p>
<p></p> A quick question. Is the stri…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-07-02:2177249:Comment:1344552014-07-02T00:34:56.962ZRick Rubinhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RickRubin
<p>A quick question. Is the string height the same now as when you sent it out for re-fretting?Also where it's rattling on the neck can tell you everything you need to know. If you had the re-fret done by an experienced tech it's doubtful that the problem is frets. The action could be too low or the neck too flat. That's the areas I always look first. Russell's advice is dead on, so is Paul's. I have an agreement with every customer I do fret work for to take it home and play it, let it settle…</p>
<p>A quick question. Is the string height the same now as when you sent it out for re-fretting?Also where it's rattling on the neck can tell you everything you need to know. If you had the re-fret done by an experienced tech it's doubtful that the problem is frets. The action could be too low or the neck too flat. That's the areas I always look first. Russell's advice is dead on, so is Paul's. I have an agreement with every customer I do fret work for to take it home and play it, let it settle in and bring it back if needed. I've worked in my humidified shop only to have an instrument that played great have issues because the owners home is dry and the top drops or the neck flattens out. There's so many little things that can cause what you're experiencing.</p>
<p>As far as learning fret work, unless you plan on doing a great deal of it there won't be much payoff for the time it will take you to get proficient. I still use my 3 corner files I safety edge for crowning. I learned that from an old school repairman 30+ years ago. I'm not all that wowed by the PLEK thing and feel that a skilled tech can do a great job.</p>