Madagascar rosewood - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T14:10:14Zhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/madagascar-rosewood?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A39122&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks for that Howard, that…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-27:2177249:Comment:391222010-08-27T22:58:23.334ZRussell Vancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
Thanks for that Howard, that was most helpful,<br />
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Rusty.
Thanks for that Howard, that was most helpful,<br />
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Rusty. Hi Ned, I agree entirely, and…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-27:2177249:Comment:391212010-08-27T22:55:29.122ZRussell Vancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
Hi Ned, I agree entirely, and while the limits of forum chat are obvious and causes undue niggle here I can assure you that we (myself and my family) are indeed humanitarians first and businessmen/women second. To list what we do would be churlish, but it is a lot and it costs a lot.<br />
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The issue of the ethical use of the resources is a subset of one of the things I do - which now involves high end guitar production with international markets being targeted. We have made the decision to finish…
Hi Ned, I agree entirely, and while the limits of forum chat are obvious and causes undue niggle here I can assure you that we (myself and my family) are indeed humanitarians first and businessmen/women second. To list what we do would be churlish, but it is a lot and it costs a lot.<br />
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The issue of the ethical use of the resources is a subset of one of the things I do - which now involves high end guitar production with international markets being targeted. We have made the decision to finish off present stock and not use endangered species ( generic ).<br />
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Any other decision requires a complex solution and leaves us open to 'cherry picking" critics with less than pure humanitarian motives (obviously this is not you Ned, but our decisions have to be made with some pragmatism otherwise we will be open to specific criticism).<br />
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Discussion at this level is a blunt instrument as I seldom know the background of those I chat with - and as you note, the ivory trade example can get one into a heap of hurt quickly - but we use it to demonstrate how business interests will say that 'farming ivory" from excess park elephants is a good way of providing income to the locals etc etc.<br />
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Except the locals hardly make the cost of their bullets when given their 'wholesale' rate for the tusks. And the 'bushmeat' market is similarly unprofitable. It also encourages captive animals to be shot for a price by "great white hunters" and their expat guides who contribute nothing to local economies. It's the middle men who make the money and they are not on the ground where the poverty exists. They are driving Beemers in Shanghai and Capetown.<br />
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However, and I do not want to appear to have the last word - the decision 'not to buy' is the only available, logical decision I can take - once the local ecosystem collapses the people die or become refugees - the original resource buyer who caused the problem never picks up the tab for this eventual misery and the burden falls on NGOs and their staff and supporters (us) to keep them alive anyway. If I had a silver bullet I would use it.<br />
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Regards, Rusty. Part of the problem is those…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-27:2177249:Comment:390982010-08-27T16:23:52.820ZHoward Klepperhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
Part of the problem is those who get their self-righteous jollies by attacking straw men, while ignoring the nuances and practical obstacles found in the real world. Those wishing to be part of a solution need to move beyond sloganeering.
Part of the problem is those who get their self-righteous jollies by attacking straw men, while ignoring the nuances and practical obstacles found in the real world. Those wishing to be part of a solution need to move beyond sloganeering. Sorry for the "lecture gone w…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-27:2177249:Comment:390972010-08-27T16:07:18.805ZNed Knepphttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
Sorry for the "lecture gone wrong".<br />
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I completely agree, "we are part of the problem". The question is what to do about it. I think the easy answer is stay out of it. ("don't buy it".) which I believe ignores the human cost in these regions. It is always easiest to say "that not my problem" but too many people in the world have a ".. let them die than and reduce the surplus population" (Ebenezer Scrooge - "A Christmas Carol".) attitude.<br />
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It appears to me that the biggest difference between us…
Sorry for the "lecture gone wrong".<br />
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I completely agree, "we are part of the problem". The question is what to do about it. I think the easy answer is stay out of it. ("don't buy it".) which I believe ignores the human cost in these regions. It is always easiest to say "that not my problem" but too many people in the world have a ".. let them die than and reduce the surplus population" (Ebenezer Scrooge - "A Christmas Carol".) attitude.<br />
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It appears to me that the biggest difference between us is that I feel the people are important and your primary concern is with the trees. I suppose we will never agree.<br />
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BTW, The ivory trade is completely different and probably shouldn't be discussed in this thread but it does, perhaps, illustrate another difference between us. I see each issue as a separate and distinct issue, each with it's own set of problem to be solved. I don't see any cookie cutter answers to them. You keep bring in outside issue as if they are the same thing which has lead me to believe that you do not see them as distinct issues. I just can't do that.<br />
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Ned Thanks Ned.tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-27:2177249:Comment:390932010-08-27T11:46:38.405ZDavid Houchenshttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DavidBryceHouchens
Thanks Ned.
Thanks Ned. Fact of the matter wqs I refe…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-27:2177249:Comment:390842010-08-27T07:31:56.440ZRussell Vancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
Fact of the matter wqs I referred to South American Mahogany and other Australian species in the main in my last post - but never let a lack of comprehension get in the way of a good misdirected statistical rant (which is a lecture gone wrong) - fact is we are part of the problem and the oft used specious defence of: "I only killed one elephant for it's tusks - that guy over there killed fifty so he's guilty and I'm not) just isn't going to wash with future consumers who will be presented with…
Fact of the matter wqs I referred to South American Mahogany and other Australian species in the main in my last post - but never let a lack of comprehension get in the way of a good misdirected statistical rant (which is a lecture gone wrong) - fact is we are part of the problem and the oft used specious defence of: "I only killed one elephant for it's tusks - that guy over there killed fifty so he's guilty and I'm not) just isn't going to wash with future consumers who will be presented with choice.<br />
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You can be part of the solution or part of the problem - its a free world brother.<br />
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Rusty. I realize that the discussion…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-27:2177249:Comment:390752010-08-27T00:14:57.957ZNed Knepphttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
I realize that the discussion about Mahogany should have been else where and I apologize for keeping it going here.<br />
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Ned
I realize that the discussion about Mahogany should have been else where and I apologize for keeping it going here.<br />
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Ned There is a saying, Paul, that…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-26:2177249:Comment:390742010-08-26T23:55:39.724ZHoward Klepperhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HowardKlepper
There is a saying, Paul, that good ethics begins with good facts. There is no disputing the problem of illegal logging in Madagascar or that it has become much worse in the past couple of years , but deriving moral imperatives from this, and more narrowly, moral imperatives for luthiers is hard.<br />
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When we move from acknowledging the problem to deciding what we as luthiers ought to do, then whether the main users of these woods are luthiers or others becomes important. As Ned has been pointing…
There is a saying, Paul, that good ethics begins with good facts. There is no disputing the problem of illegal logging in Madagascar or that it has become much worse in the past couple of years , but deriving moral imperatives from this, and more narrowly, moral imperatives for luthiers is hard.<br />
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When we move from acknowledging the problem to deciding what we as luthiers ought to do, then whether the main users of these woods are luthiers or others becomes important. As Ned has been pointing out, the economic value of a resource can lead to its sustainable preservation. Maintaining the value of Malagasy woods for luthiers might be compatible with a sustainable industry. But if the demands of luthiers were to be themselves enough for the destruction of the resource, that would not seem to be a possibility.<br />
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I also see little reason to doubt that much or most of the mahogany logging in Brazil is illegal, or that the largest importer country for this wood is the USA. I also see little reason to doubt that most of this wood goes to major furniture manufacturers. Again, what moral imperatives for luthiers might stem from these facts is not easy to determine, and IMO should be the subject of a different discussion, given the differences between Madagascar and Brazil. Ok, this is long but it's a c…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-26:2177249:Comment:390702010-08-26T22:16:42.367ZNed Knepphttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/NedKnepp
Ok, this is long but it's a complicated issue.<br />
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Russell said; <i>“As for you not having seen anyone who would take the last tree and leave the ground bare - try taking a trip to Tasmania…”</i><br />
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I have seen this on a smaller scale here. I’ve seen the results of clear cutting too many times. You didn’t read what I said carefully. I was referring to this community of people on the forum. I haven’t seen anyone here that would take the last tree but no matter what you do there will always be someone…
Ok, this is long but it's a complicated issue.<br />
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Russell said; <i>“As for you not having seen anyone who would take the last tree and leave the ground bare - try taking a trip to Tasmania…”</i><br />
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I have seen this on a smaller scale here. I’ve seen the results of clear cutting too many times. You didn’t read what I said carefully. I was referring to this community of people on the forum. I haven’t seen anyone here that would take the last tree but no matter what you do there will always be someone in the world willing to do so UNLESS it is more profitable to leave it. “Don’t buy it” won’t work because it is unenforceable. Someone will “buy it” so the answer, as you pointed out long ago is sustainable wood sources. Unfortunately, it seems that there isn’t anyone involved in the issue of Madagascar Rosewood that has the wherewithal to make this happen.<br />
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Russell said; <i>“ However, the economic fundamentals are immutable and no amount of specious or self serving waffle is gong to change the fundamental fact that demand creates profits profit - while the demand is strong the decimation of the species is assured.”</i><br />
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Of course demand makes profits but it doesn't HAVE to mean the end of a species. Demand also created the sustainable forest that we have today. Mankind doesn’t preserve anything they do not see value in preserving and it takes money to do that. Conservation is not cheap and in the case of a forest, it is dependent upon the convictions of the people that own it. In this case, the people who own it are NOT on board to conserve the forest. It’s unfortunate but it’s the reality of the situation.<br />
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In the U.S. we have many National Parks which conserve various resources. The profit we find in this, as a nation, is that we feel good about it. I’m sure that we could build a list of other reasons but, for the most part, that’s it. We are also fortunate enough to have enough surpluses in our economy to do this because it is NOT cheap. We talked about buffalo. Our park system can only support a limited number of them but there are more that than that in this country because some ranchers have found a market for buffalo meat. There is profit in keeping these animals. We feel good about saving them and we eat them.<br />
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To a developing economy, in today’s world, a forest that isn’t being cut is useless. Where they are being conserved is in places where the leaders of the world have convinced the “owners” of that forest that it is more profitable to them to keep in intact. That is why I said that I think it is good for people to want Brazilian Rosewood. I didn’t say they are entitled to cut the last trees. I just recognize that demand is what drives markets for sustainable wood as much as it drives the black market.<br />
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The U.S. allows importation of Mahogany in accordance with the CITIES, appendix II criteria. The idea was never to stop all exports of mahogany from developing countries. It is to limit exportation to sustainable quantities.<br />
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<i>“Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look-alike species", i.e. species of which the specimens in trade look like those of species listed for conservation reasons (see Article II, paragraph 2 of the Convention). International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild. (See Article IV of the Convention)</i> <a href="http://www.cites.org/eng/app/index.shtml" target="_blank"></a><br />
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First two paragraphs of the following document outline the U.S. position on exportation of Big leaf Mahogany ;<br />
<a href="http://www.uscites.gov/update/progress-made-conservation-bigleaf-mahogany-freshwater-tortoises-and-turtles-snakes-and-saiga" target="_blank">http://www.uscites.gov/update/progress-made-conservation-bigleaf-ma...</a>"<br />
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The follow link refers to U.S. Import information on Big leaf Mahogany.<br />
<a href="http://www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/CITES/timber/mahogany_import_export.html" target="_blank">http://www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/CITES/timber/mahogany_impo...</a>"<br />
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The “Lacy Law” in the U.S. requires this that this documentation follows the materials involved. There have been abuses. For instance, it was recently discovered that much of the Mahogany from Peru may have been illegally cut.<br />
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<i>“According to the report, over 80 percent of mahogany exports from Peru end up in the US, making it very likely that illegally logged wood is entering the US market. In 2008 the US passed an amendment to the Lacey Act which outlaws the importation, possession, or sale of illegally sourced wood; however the UAC has found evidence that Peruvian illegal loggers are circumventing the law.”</i><br />
<a href="http://news.mongabay.com/2010/0720-hance_uncontacted_peru.html" target="_blank">http://news.mongabay.com/2010/0720-hance_uncontacted_peru.html</a>"<br />
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The problem is that the Peruvian Government isn’t adequately policing their loggers. Does it really make any sense to cut off all trade in a case such as this? What Peru needs is help not abandonment. What they need to do is going to cost them more money but proper management will curtail the supply so the increase demand will supply the money they need. We will pay more for the lumber but then that is exactly what is needed to sustain sustainable forestry. There MUST be profit in it or it will not happen.<br />
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You commented that the lumber roads help farmers and ranchers in the Amazon move into the forested areas and I agree that it does but I do not think it is realistic to assume that not having roads will keep them from continuing to expand. It seems fairly obvious to me that anyone capable of clearing the land can also make roads where they want them. They make money by producing more crops and more cattle. They would continue the expansion with or without these roads and the fact still stands that this is, by far, the largest cause of deforestation in the Amazon.<br />
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The bottom line is that these trees belong to the countries that surround them. Much as we may wish, they are not ours to manage. We can make treaties and we can make our own laws but, in the end it is up to those nations to manage their resources. The trees can be saved but only if there is some kind of return on the investment and I just don’t see how a “don’t buy it” policy in and of itself can work. The greater issues of survival need to be addressed.<br />
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Ned That was really helpful, Howa…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2010-08-26:2177249:Comment:390662010-08-26T20:12:39.030ZPaul Hostetterhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulHostetter
That was really helpful, Howard. We can always count on you for facts and a good perspective.
That was really helpful, Howard. We can always count on you for facts and a good perspective.