Puzzling intonation issue: first 4-5 frets note sharp - FRETS.NET2024-03-29T08:48:26Zhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/puzzling-intonation-issue-first-4-5-frets-note-sharp?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A193313&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAfter, checking & recheck…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-09-02:2177249:Comment:1933132020-09-02T11:53:16.532ZDave Richardhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DaveRichard983
<p>After, checking & rechecking the fret layout, I removed the nut, and trimmed 1mm off the fingerboard. Made a new nut, and the intonation is very much improved, and the owner is very pleased. I think the very tall Gibson factory frets are not helping(it's absurdly easy to push the strings sharp, when fretting), but that's a separate issue. Thanks for all your replies.</p>
<p>After, checking & rechecking the fret layout, I removed the nut, and trimmed 1mm off the fingerboard. Made a new nut, and the intonation is very much improved, and the owner is very pleased. I think the very tall Gibson factory frets are not helping(it's absurdly easy to push the strings sharp, when fretting), but that's a separate issue. Thanks for all your replies.</p> Yes it was about calculating…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-09-02:2177249:Comment:1932692020-09-02T02:07:57.563ZLen Biglinhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/LenBiglin
<p>Yes it was about calculating the spacing using the rule of 18 where the frets advance by 1/18th of the string length versus the 12th root of 2 method . Imagine working that out long hand !</p>
<p>Yes it was about calculating the spacing using the rule of 18 where the frets advance by 1/18th of the string length versus the 12th root of 2 method . Imagine working that out long hand !</p> there is a thing about gibson…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-21:2177249:Comment:1931852020-08-21T02:09:20.782ZWalter W Wrighthttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/WalterWWright
<p>there <span style="text-decoration: underline;">is</span> a thing about gibson scales being sort of "off"</p>
<p>not "gibson" 24 3/4 inch scale as found on epiphone and many others, but actual <span style="text-decoration: underline;">gibson</span> guitars. first off it's closer to (but not exactly) 24.6", and second, luthier david collins has hipped us all to how the actual ratios are a little weird, like they didn't do the math right or there were tolerance errors in the early fret…</p>
<p>there <span style="text-decoration: underline;">is</span> a thing about gibson scales being sort of "off"</p>
<p>not "gibson" 24 3/4 inch scale as found on epiphone and many others, but actual <span style="text-decoration: underline;">gibson</span> guitars. first off it's closer to (but not exactly) 24.6", and second, luthier david collins has hipped us all to how the actual ratios are a little weird, like they didn't do the math right or there were tolerance errors in the early fret slotting machines and they just kept it.</p>
<p>unbelievable i know but it seems to work fine, including the first few frets not being sharp if it's set up right. (just went through one today, a new 2020 les paul, and after filing the slots down where they belonged and thinking about this question i made a point of checking with my super-accurate turbo-tuner and yeah, first four or five frets were not appreciably sharp.)</p> I remember someone saying tha…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-18:2177249:Comment:1930382020-08-18T09:47:07.812ZLen Biglinhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/LenBiglin
<p>I remember someone saying that gibson had a slightly odd scale which changed when they went to Montana , that scale is still used by the old factory (Heritage I think ). That may have been an input from Finger Lakes ? Also I remember about 10 years ago I had a run of Fender electrics (USA) where I had to take 0.012"off the fretboard at the nut to get them intonated , then they were fine , and I run nuts as low as workable .</p>
<p>I remember someone saying that gibson had a slightly odd scale which changed when they went to Montana , that scale is still used by the old factory (Heritage I think ). That may have been an input from Finger Lakes ? Also I remember about 10 years ago I had a run of Fender electrics (USA) where I had to take 0.012"off the fretboard at the nut to get them intonated , then they were fine , and I run nuts as low as workable .</p> Walter, I can assure you that…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-17:2177249:Comment:1929502020-08-17T20:02:56.908ZGreg Mirkenhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/GregMirken
<p>Walter, I can assure you that I have encountered, and corrected, this exact issue on a Gibson acoustic guitar, using the method I described. I was given the job after several other luthiers were unable to make the guitar intonate correctly; they probably assumed that the nut was placed correctly, so they attacked other factors. This is the only time I have encountered a misplaced nut that was certainly a manufacturing screw-up from a major manufacturer.</p>
<p>On a slightly related note,…</p>
<p>Walter, I can assure you that I have encountered, and corrected, this exact issue on a Gibson acoustic guitar, using the method I described. I was given the job after several other luthiers were unable to make the guitar intonate correctly; they probably assumed that the nut was placed correctly, so they attacked other factors. This is the only time I have encountered a misplaced nut that was certainly a manufacturing screw-up from a major manufacturer.</p>
<p>On a slightly related note, when I was working at Dobro in the 70s, the fret slots were cut by a giant gang-saw with blades separated by numbered brass spacers. They handed me a stack of boards to inlay and fret, and I noticed that two fret spaces, up around 10 or 11, were switched, making one fret badly out of position. I told Ron that these were not usable, and after I showed him the problem he countered with "Well, these are just for squareneck guitars anyway." I declined to work on them, but I don't know if they threw them out or found a way to use them. So don't assume whoopses can't happen!</p>
<p></p> Sounds like the frets are mis…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-17:2177249:Comment:1930322020-08-17T16:29:23.108ZRoger Häggströmhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>Sounds like the frets are misplaced. If I were you I would use <a href="https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator.html" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Stewmacs fret calculator</a> and try to match the numbers with the fret positions on the guitar. The open string length for the treble e string, or twice the length from the nut to the 12th fret, is a good starting value for the calculator.</p>
<p>If so, remove the faulty frets and glue matching wood in the cuts. Then saw new cuts for the frets…</p>
<p>Sounds like the frets are misplaced. If I were you I would use <a href="https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Stewmacs fret calculator</a> and try to match the numbers with the fret positions on the guitar. The open string length for the treble e string, or twice the length from the nut to the 12th fret, is a good starting value for the calculator.</p>
<p>If so, remove the faulty frets and glue matching wood in the cuts. Then saw new cuts for the frets in the right position.</p> To clarify: the nut slots are…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-17:2177249:Comment:1929432020-08-17T14:29:05.060ZDave Richardhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/DaveRichard983
<p>To clarify: the nut slots are NOT too high. </p>
<p>The owner keeps .011/set on the guitar, so the strings are not too light.</p>
<p>And it's not a question of player technique. When I myself play the instrument, and no matter how lightly I fret the guitar, those first 4-5 frets note significantly sharp.</p>
<p>Another factor, which may not be relevant(but seems so to me): As mentioned, I bought a StewMac Gibson fret scale to check the fret layout. This Gibson matches none of the three…</p>
<p>To clarify: the nut slots are NOT too high. </p>
<p>The owner keeps .011/set on the guitar, so the strings are not too light.</p>
<p>And it's not a question of player technique. When I myself play the instrument, and no matter how lightly I fret the guitar, those first 4-5 frets note significantly sharp.</p>
<p>Another factor, which may not be relevant(but seems so to me): As mentioned, I bought a StewMac Gibson fret scale to check the fret layout. This Gibson matches none of the three 'short' scales, except: when I place the 24-9/16th scale on the fingerboard, I can line up the nut mark, and the 12th fret mark, but...all the other frets are off. From the 1st to the 8th fret, they fall 'short' of the marks(toward the nut), from 9-11 they move back toward the marks, and from 13-22 the frets move away from the ruler marks, toward the bridge. It seems to me, that if the nut, and the 12th fret, align with my StewMac fret scale, that would make it a 24-9/16th scale...except all the other frets are off. ???</p> Good call. The string height…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-17:2177249:Comment:1929392020-08-17T07:04:45.797ZRoger Häggströmhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RogerHaeggstroem
<p>Good call. The string height at the first fret and also the 12th fret are major player in the intonation game. So is the fretting force. I just took those for granted... But even with a perfect setup, intonation will almost always be better if the nut is moved closer to the first fret. How much to move the nut is depending on the guitar itself, the open string length and the stiffness/thickness of the strings.<br></br><br></br>Normally, a good measure for the height at the first fret is the height…</p>
<p>Good call. The string height at the first fret and also the 12th fret are major player in the intonation game. So is the fretting force. I just took those for granted... But even with a perfect setup, intonation will almost always be better if the nut is moved closer to the first fret. How much to move the nut is depending on the guitar itself, the open string length and the stiffness/thickness of the strings.<br/><br/>Normally, a good measure for the height at the first fret is the height the same height zero fret as the rest of the frets gives. If the string height is really, really low at the 12th fret, the string height at the first fret have to be a bit higher not to have a back buzz. If the string height at the 12th fret is really, really high, the string height at the first fret can be lowered.</p> i'm not sure that i've ever i…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-17:2177249:Comment:1930282020-08-17T06:27:21.630ZWalter W Wrighthttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/WalterWWright
<p>i'm not sure that i've ever in all my years of doing this ran into a production factory-made guitar where the nut actually needed to be relocated!</p>
<p>(that includes the ridiculously over-compensated earvana and the whole buzz feiten thing, which i was an official installer for back when people bought into that)</p>
<p>it's <span style="text-decoration: underline;">far</span> more likely the nut slots are just too high, maybe combined with tall frets and/or thin strings on a guitar owned…</p>
<p>i'm not sure that i've ever in all my years of doing this ran into a production factory-made guitar where the nut actually needed to be relocated!</p>
<p>(that includes the ridiculously over-compensated earvana and the whole buzz feiten thing, which i was an official installer for back when people bought into that)</p>
<p>it's <span style="text-decoration: underline;">far</span> more likely the nut slots are just too high, maybe combined with tall frets and/or thin strings on a guitar owned by a player used to death-gripping an acoustic with big strings and little frets.</p>
<p>i'm using a sonic research turbo-tuner, which is a real analog strobe tuner and super-accurate, really more accurate than the guitar itself is capable of being, and (given good frets and proper setup) with the nut slots down where they belong the first few frets will intonate just fine.</p> Playing technique also affect…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2020-08-15:2177249:Comment:1930222020-08-15T19:37:59.534ZHarry G Quattlebaumhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/HarryGQuattlebaum
<p>Playing technique also affects intonation, especially with tall frets and light gauge strings. If your customers play with a heavy touch, they can throw the strings out of tune, in the same way that players can make even a medium to high action set up buzz if they pick downward into the top of the guitar. Not saying that's the issue here, but it's something to consider. I'd want to carefully watch each of them play their guitar as part of troubleshooting the problem.</p>
<p>Playing technique also affects intonation, especially with tall frets and light gauge strings. If your customers play with a heavy touch, they can throw the strings out of tune, in the same way that players can make even a medium to high action set up buzz if they pick downward into the top of the guitar. Not saying that's the issue here, but it's something to consider. I'd want to carefully watch each of them play their guitar as part of troubleshooting the problem.</p>