undersaddle pick up thump - FRETS.NET2024-03-28T20:07:44Zhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/undersaddle-pick-up-thump?commentId=2177249%3AComment%3A140979&feed=yes&xn_auth=noMy K&K's are attached wit…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-28:2177249:Comment:1412032014-12-28T14:54:00.168ZLARRY KLOSEhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/LARRYKLOSE
<p>My K&K's are attached with the supplied two sided tape. Works fine and much less destructive than epoxy.</p>
<p>It does help to clamp them for a day or so and avoid hard knocks for a while after installation so that the adhesive can harden up. One "dot" came unglued on my first install but after reattachment, it's been fine for several years.</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13px;">Larry</span></p>
<p>My K&K's are attached with the supplied two sided tape. Works fine and much less destructive than epoxy.</p>
<p>It does help to clamp them for a day or so and avoid hard knocks for a while after installation so that the adhesive can harden up. One "dot" came unglued on my first install but after reattachment, it's been fine for several years.</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13px;">Larry</span></p> "Manufacturers know that hist…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-28:2177249:Comment:1413822014-12-28T02:00:14.328ZRussell Vancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>"Manufacturers know that historically most players buy what their repair tech/luthier recommends. They also know that systems that are easy to install and systems that don't come back for adjustments and problems get recommended by guitar techs/luthiers."</p>
<p>Ain't that the truth - guilty as charged!</p>
<p></p>
<p>Rusty.</p>
<p>"Manufacturers know that historically most players buy what their repair tech/luthier recommends. They also know that systems that are easy to install and systems that don't come back for adjustments and problems get recommended by guitar techs/luthiers."</p>
<p>Ain't that the truth - guilty as charged!</p>
<p></p>
<p>Rusty.</p> The Hot Dots were imbedded pi…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-28:2177249:Comment:1408812014-12-28T01:00:37.423ZJohnhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/John631
<p>The Hot Dots were imbedded piezos which is another style of piezo, ie Fishman and Schatten Archtop and mandolin pick ups. And various string instrument pickups.</p>
<p>I'm writing fact not opinion. The original Takimine pickup and the Dean Markley SST have a much higher output than the K&K or any other contact piezo. That's not opinion it's physics. The combination of size and the fact that any pressure on a piezo increases its output dramatically, means that a contact pickup even three…</p>
<p>The Hot Dots were imbedded piezos which is another style of piezo, ie Fishman and Schatten Archtop and mandolin pick ups. And various string instrument pickups.</p>
<p>I'm writing fact not opinion. The original Takimine pickup and the Dean Markley SST have a much higher output than the K&K or any other contact piezo. That's not opinion it's physics. The combination of size and the fact that any pressure on a piezo increases its output dramatically, means that a contact pickup even three of them can't be as loud.</p>
<p>Here's another thing, the less mass you attach to a piezo (any type of housing, think Schaller Oyster or EPM beercap, adds mass) the more output you get. The K&K are a lightweight housing epoxied to the bridge plate. It's the best case scenario for a contact transducer. This is why I said twice they work well, which would imply that I "kinda like" them. The part of them I really don't like is epoxying pickups to the bridge plate. I've had to replace a faulty element twice, it's a nuisance job.</p>
<p>What Rusty said about buffer pre amps is important, bringing a ten meg ohm load down to six hundred ohms helps them play well with others. Personally I like FET style preamps or buffers for this because they tend to be more forgiving about impedance than opamps. The loading issues associated with piezos have to do with output and length of cable. A higher output piezo with a short cord will need a preamp less than the opposite scenario.</p>
<p>Manufacturers know that historically most players buy what their repair tech/luthier recommends. They also know that systems that are easy to install and systems that don't come back for adjustments and problems get recommended by guitar techs/luthiers.</p>
<p>Undersaddle piezos with large crystals generally require rerouting saddle slots and can have string balance problems that are sometimes chronic. This is what paved the way for the much lower output style of under saddle pickups we see today. Easier install with fewer problems. </p>
<p>The K&K pickups work well, I anticipate a day when a much better bridge plate transducer comes along and a bunch of guys are wondering why anybody would epoxy something to the bridge plate.</p> Hi All,
Larry, you raise some…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-27:2177249:Comment:1409792014-12-27T22:52:55.003ZRussell Vancehttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/RussellVance
<p>Hi All,</p>
<p>Larry, you raise some useful perspectives here which hopefully will explain the different views about this and that. Most of my colleagues find something they like and stick to it, same goes for installers. This doesn't mean the "chosen one" is good or bad, it's just what we are comfortable with. </p>
<p>For example Tommy Emmanuel uses a Maton AP5 pickup and preamp in his guitars which is "out of the arc" but it suits his sound and technique and he is obviously happy with…</p>
<p>Hi All,</p>
<p>Larry, you raise some useful perspectives here which hopefully will explain the different views about this and that. Most of my colleagues find something they like and stick to it, same goes for installers. This doesn't mean the "chosen one" is good or bad, it's just what we are comfortable with. </p>
<p>For example Tommy Emmanuel uses a Maton AP5 pickup and preamp in his guitars which is "out of the arc" but it suits his sound and technique and he is obviously happy with this setup......I'm not a fan of this system which is problematic to maintain from time to time, but for a player with the accuracy, speed and touch that he has it's a great choice - for an basic strummer it's nothing special. </p>
<p>But on the other hand I'm working with this sort of stuff a lot and see and hear a lot of different systems that customers have taken a liking too - things just get popular from time to time because of the websites the masses tend to frequent and worship.</p>
<p>My experience tells me that most systems are comparable and a lot of both the older and the modern ones are just re-badged and re-engineered versions of the original theme. Bit like overdrive and distortion pedals....they all had the same mother back in the time of Maxon OD 808s..which was the progenitor for the Ibanez Tubescreamers, Boss SD and OD and a million subsequent pedals with the same DNA. </p>
<p>Furthermore, if one is playing a solo gig in a quiet coffee shop there is a different performance dynamic and feedback rejection/response requirement to say, playing on a 100 Db sound stage.......where UST's thrive in overbraced factory customs that look like the one on the showroom floor but are hybrids in reality. A bit different from the pristine surrounds of a studio and a couple of thousand bucks worth of condenser mikes etc. It's a different system for a different environment.</p>
<p>I also note the fact that K&K, like a lot of the more modern producers have a polymer option, which is what I mentioned in the first place as a good option for all round stuff ....different strokes but deserving of equal consideration.</p>
<p>My comments about having onboard buffering/preamps stands for the traveling or performing musicians who are at the mercy of the house/recording equipment - if you do not have a conditioned output you are at the mercy of the "house" inputs, which can be good or can be bad. I recommend choice. Nothing like finding that "Redneck Joe's Bar & Grill" front of house/monitors are out of phase with your baby to make you appreciate the phase switch. </p>
<p>Similarly, preamps are there to help match output impedance with input impedance and select an appropriate line level - all the 'loud" under the sun from a Piezo output (or any output for that matter) won't overcome a "bad" mismatch. Which is why everyone has a spare DI somewhere in their travel kit.</p>
<p>What I see with this seeming endless discussion about preferences is that we start looking at stuff half way down the fork in the road rather than checking out the map before we start. Different destination require different roads. </p>
<p>This is difficult stuff as it's not my specialty....David Collins, are you out there?</p>
<p>Regards, Rusty.</p> "God is in the details" is th…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-27:2177249:Comment:1411912014-12-27T17:26:59.414ZLARRY KLOSEhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/LARRYKLOSE
<p>"God is in the details" is the old saying, and K&K seems to have addressed those very well, regardless of the initial origin of the basic technology. Many successful new guitar designs tweak features first developed in the 19th century (e.g. X bracing) but that doesn't make the new designs less successful. The same can be said of 20th Century tweaks, like prewar Martin designs. I agree with you, Kerry--"new" for the sake of "new" often isn't all it's cracked up to be.</p>
<p>OTOH,…</p>
<p>"God is in the details" is the old saying, and K&K seems to have addressed those very well, regardless of the initial origin of the basic technology. Many successful new guitar designs tweak features first developed in the 19th century (e.g. X bracing) but that doesn't make the new designs less successful. The same can be said of 20th Century tweaks, like prewar Martin designs. I agree with you, Kerry--"new" for the sake of "new" often isn't all it's cracked up to be.</p>
<p>OTOH, Speaking of K&K and "new," has anyone experimented with K&K's polymer based pickups for guitars with movable bridges? If so, what say ye?</p>
<p>Larry</p>
<p>PS: My K&K fitted instruments can go directly to the PA board. I have a DI/preamp that I hardly ever use because of that.</p>
<p>Larry</p> John, you and I have argued a…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-27:2177249:Comment:1408732014-12-27T16:55:01.294ZKerry Krishnahttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/KerryKrishna
<p>John, you and I have argued about the K and Ks before, and I don't agree with you. They are not anything like the old Hot Dots. K and Ks all by themselves are the loudest piezo pickup made, without any kind of a preamp, which is why so many cheep folks don't buy the preamp. I know you have installed the K and Ks too . You are the only Luthier I have yet heard who doesn't at least, kinda like it. Many Luthiers swear by them. Enough said. You are allowed your opinion, just as I am…</p>
<p>John, you and I have argued about the K and Ks before, and I don't agree with you. They are not anything like the old Hot Dots. K and Ks all by themselves are the loudest piezo pickup made, without any kind of a preamp, which is why so many cheep folks don't buy the preamp. I know you have installed the K and Ks too . You are the only Luthier I have yet heard who doesn't at least, kinda like it. Many Luthiers swear by them. Enough said. You are allowed your opinion, just as I am mine.</p>
<p></p> what a great idea jefftag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-24:2177249:Comment:1410442014-12-24T01:09:30.425ZSteve Williamshttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/SteveWilliams53
<p>what a great idea jeff</p>
<p>what a great idea jeff</p> I seem to have a lot of probl…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-24:2177249:Comment:1408342014-12-24T00:08:00.275ZJeff Highlandhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/JeffHighland
<p>I seem to have a lot of problems with battery box terminals on customers guitars, often retensioning them or removing obstacles does the trick.</p>
<p>For uneven contact under the saddle leading to uneven string output, the best fix I have found is to cut the saddle into three sections, each holding only two strings. It instantly resolves many issues and I have not found any downside.</p>
<p>I seem to have a lot of problems with battery box terminals on customers guitars, often retensioning them or removing obstacles does the trick.</p>
<p>For uneven contact under the saddle leading to uneven string output, the best fix I have found is to cut the saddle into three sections, each holding only two strings. It instantly resolves many issues and I have not found any downside.</p> Hi Fred.
Lots of good advice…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-23:2177249:Comment:1410382014-12-23T22:41:10.565ZPaul Verticchiohttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/PaulVerticchio
<p>Hi Fred.</p>
<p>Lots of good advice & options have come your way. Aren't these folks GREAT :)</p>
<p>I've worked on a couple dozen Ibanez instruments with that PUP, and have one in my "$300 (everywhere) Orange colored Ibanez Nylon string A/E".</p>
<p>The only other fixes you may wish to investigate are your battery (make sure it's fresh) and the output board. If the output assembly is the 1/4"/XLR combo, those are well known for crummy solder joints and poor battery terminal connections.…</p>
<p>Hi Fred.</p>
<p>Lots of good advice & options have come your way. Aren't these folks GREAT :)</p>
<p>I've worked on a couple dozen Ibanez instruments with that PUP, and have one in my "$300 (everywhere) Orange colored Ibanez Nylon string A/E".</p>
<p>The only other fixes you may wish to investigate are your battery (make sure it's fresh) and the output board. If the output assembly is the 1/4"/XLR combo, those are well known for crummy solder joints and poor battery terminal connections. Before I discovered those issues, I had a show completely ruined by the intermittent performance of the assembly, which included audio disconnects AND that pop you mention. I re-flowed and or repaired all solder connections and shimmed the battery terminals and... the gremlins went away.</p>
<p>Best of luck with your guitar :)</p> I like to install K&K pic…tag:fretsnet.ning.com,2014-12-23:2177249:Comment:1410342014-12-23T20:57:45.679ZMike Kolbhttps://fretsnet.ning.com/profile/MikeKolb
<p>I like to install K&K pickups for customers, not only because they work well but they're consistent in their quality. It also doesn't hurt that they're made right here in Oregon and should I ever have an application problem (like with oddball zithers and the ilk) they're a phone call away and they bend-over backwards to help out. </p>
<p>Sure, they may not be cutting-edge... but dependability, fair prices and good basic sound counts for a lot in my book.</p>
<p>I like to install K&K pickups for customers, not only because they work well but they're consistent in their quality. It also doesn't hurt that they're made right here in Oregon and should I ever have an application problem (like with oddball zithers and the ilk) they're a phone call away and they bend-over backwards to help out. </p>
<p>Sure, they may not be cutting-edge... but dependability, fair prices and good basic sound counts for a lot in my book.</p>