12 pole humbucker?

[LARRY KLOSE]

So, I may need to get a new floating pickup for my archtop.  Not really what I want, but if the epoxy repair of the existing floater (see separate discussion) isn't successful, I'll probably do that.  I'm not familiar with the nuances of all these pickups but it appears that the likely candidate is a Kent Armstrong Mini because of the low clearance on the guitar.  Choices are a single coil mini, a 6 pole humbucker and a 12 pole humbucker--all in the hand wound version made by Armstrong--not the licensed version of Asian manufacture.  I've seen bad reviews of those on various jazz sites.

What's the difference in the 3 above for a jazz guitar application?  Is one clearly superior in terms of tone or other characteristics?  Are these a bad choice that should push me to do more research on other brands?

Talk amongst yourselves.  Discuss.<G>

Larry

[LARRY KLOSE]

The mini that's not a humbucker is listed as a PAF.  

Larry

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Larry.

What website are you seeing these pups on? Every link I find to Kent's hand wound series of pups goes to WD Products.

Their info on each is minimal, which in this case is acceptable.

I think I found the ones you're speaking of. If you're referring to WD Item # KAHW-HJGSBK, it too, is a humbucker

Generally, they're moderate output (8k) hubucking pickups. They should have an evenly balanced frequency response. BTW: Kent's factory wound pups get a bad rap ONLY because they have no snob appeal. They (and their Guitar Fetish clones) have good & crummy pups. All makers do.

In all honesty, unless anyone has tried all 3 pickups on the same guitar, and the guitarist is YOU, it's impossible to describe the generalities of each, let alone the nuances.

Most all of Kent's pups are well regarded as a price/performance item. That qualifies them for a recommendation,so I'd say stick with the ones that meet the size & pocketbook criteria and/or join the rest of us who have spent thousands of dollars over the decades looking for the perfect pickup. Psssssst...it don't exist.

Now I open myself up for some serious re-flaming: Unless you're going to be playing through a HIGH QUALITY amp at gig volumes (from coffee houses to arenas), the 'nuances' of which you speak are lost.

I've seen so many people swap pups on their guitars and then run them through a Peavey Bandit or a Crate 100w combo and lo & behold, they can't discern a difference. The problem wasn't with the pups; it's with the one trick pony amps. The same thing goes if you use your tone control to roll off the high end. Doing that, you eliminate 99% of  the 'magic that was engineered into the pup.

In continuing to make myself available for nuclear blasts: I maintain that 90% of a guitarists tone is in the hands of the guitarist, so any discussion of pups beyond very relaxed generalities is a waste of time. The one item that makes the biggest difference in sound...the player...is never factored into a review.

In summary, Kent makes reliable pups. That qualifies as basis for a recommendation. Any sonic evaluation beyond that point is a personal observation with thousands of variables. The easiest recipe: 1) Install pickup. 2) Season to taste.

Best of luck :)

[LARRY KLOSE]

Thanks, Paul.

So maybe I should just go with factory wound KA versions of what I think I need?  This is the same guitar I've posted most of my most recent inquiries about so it's not going to get the D'Angelico prize for best guitar in the world.  It works but it's a player, not a piece of art.  Amp would be an acoustic 

I'd still like to get some idea of the difference between the Johnny Smith style 6 and 12 pole pups and the style you mention, a mini HB with no adjustable poles at all.  I've been using nickel strings but might try PB (what I use on my flattop) if the pup would work with them.  Is that the only reason to use an adjustable pole pup or is there some other good reason to do so?

I need to use a mini style because there's not much space between the strings and the guitar top.

Websites: WD Products (which is KA's designated distributor), DjangoBooks.com (reseller) and Archtop.com (also a reseller).  Archtop.com has some good info on space needs but WD has more selection and lower prices as well as the factory-wound line.

I'll check back after I go try the epoxy fix on the current broken mount.

Larry

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Larry.

DO NOT use bronze strings with these pickups. I mean, you can but your output will be weak and tinny. Those pups are not designed to be used with bronze strings.

As for a tonal description: see if WD can give you abetter description. I have an account with them and there's only the same info available to customers & dealers. Sometimes you just have to go through a lot of pups to find the right one for the right guitar. That's just a fact.

[LARRY KLOSE]

Paul,

No Bronze strings with the one I fixed.  It doesn't have adjustable pole pieces so that wouldn't work.  I knew that.<G>  When I said bronze, I was talking about the Johnny Smith style.  

The best tonal descriptions I have found is at Archtop.com on the accessories page.  They don't carry all of the KA variations, however.

See my last Reply below re what's happening now.  I'm just happy because it works and I don't need to spend more just to restore its function.  When that croaks, I'll look again.

Thanks for your wisdom!

Larry

[LARRY KLOSE]

So this has now become an academic discussion for me--I successfully epoxied the pickup and the mounting flange back together.  Works great.  A little heavy on bass, but I think that's a matter of adjusting shims to put the bass end of the pickup a little further from the strings--distance from the pup is about the same for the high and low E's.

Thanks for your comments.  I'll work on my playing before I consider upgrading the pup.

Larry

[Paul Verticchio]

Good work, Larry.

Re: bronze strings...Yes, it is kinda academic.....Here's an explanation.

A bronze wound string (either 80/20 or Phos.) doesn't have the magnetic properties needed to work efficiently with a magnetic pickup designed for nickle/steel strings. It doesn't have the iron content.  And...the Johnny Smith style pup  is a magnetic pickup designed expressly for use with steel strings.

Maybe someone can chime in to explain it better.

Like I said, good work on the repair :) Enjoy the finished product.

[LARRY KLOSE]

OK, got it.  Last question:

When I re-installed the pup, I set it up so that both sides were the same distance from their closest string--the 2 E's.  I noticed when I played it that the bass strings seemed louder and kind of boomed compared to the middle and high strings, particularly in the middle of the neck.  Am I correct that I should set the bass side of the pup lower than the treble side?  Or should I work on getting an EQ setup that evens things out?  I'm playing through my only amp, a Hartke acoustic model.  It sounds good with amplified acoustic instruments and generally with the this guitar, but the EQ is radically different with the present pup setup.  I haven't played the ax electrically for a long time so I can't remember exactly what it sounded like before the mounting  setup broke but I remember that it seemed to work OK with that amp before.

This is a pickup with no exposed pole pieces--just flat across the top.  Looks and measures like this: http://www.wdmusic.com/HJGS3BK.html.  Probably the same model or a predecessor.

Still seeking wisdom... 

Larry

[Paul Verticchio]

ALRIGHT...progress :)  It's going to work out great for you.

I'll give you a more detailed reply about pickups etc tomorrow. I had a spinal fusion procedure done last week & I'm still in recovery mode and  tend to get fatigued easily..like now :)

Have a good'un, Larry :)

[Andy Rogers]

Hi Larry
One of the basic set ups I do once I've done the neck relief , pickup general height, string height and intonation is the pickup balance - for exactly the reason you say. Sometimes it's the treble that needs controlling, sometimes the bass. Sometimes it is the whole pickup I tilt and sometimes individual slugs (where they are adjustable) . All of this is done with the amp EQ pretty neutral (or whatever "normal" is for that particular amp.
Doing this means that whatever venue you are at, then small adjustments at the amp or guitar tone control should always be capable of compensating for local tonal foibles.
Hope this helps.
Andy