Such A Deal.....

[Hesh Breakstone]

Frequently we see folks who have either just purchased an old or not-so-old guitar from a yard sale or often worse yet... ebay.

When they come into the shop they are frequently excited and keen to tell the story of how they found or "won" the instrument for peanuts.  Sometimes it's much more than peanuts with one client recently paying $2,300.00 for a 30's archtop that likely needs another thousand spent on it so that it's value may be $1,800.00 when all is said and done.

This places us in the unwelcome position of telling them, after an evaluation of the instrument, that it's a wall hanger or "project guitar."  If we get involved there are associated costs in so much as we are in business and also have associated costs as well.

It's often a sad state of affairs once they are informed, gently.... that the cost of repairs might be X and the value of the instrument might be X minus 1/2 of X.... even with the completed repairs...

On those seemingly rare occasions when someone is keen to attempt the work on their own making this a project guitar what can follow are efforts to have us talk them through it, no matter how long a project this may be.... while our focus has to be on our paying clients.  We help where we can but it's had me thinking for a long while now since this keeps happening over and over again that perhaps someone should put together a structured check-list for folks not savvy in purchasing instruments sight-unseen.  Even then there is also the idea of misrepresentation and likely no way around this.

Of the collectors that I know they appreciate reputable sources, brick and mortar businesses that are established, may offer a guarantee, and have decent reputations.  But these places, like any brick and mortar business also have overhead and associated costs to operate.  So the great deals are often not found here.

Some of the collectors that I know will purchase off ebay sight-unseen and even when they do they are often dissatisfied with what the UPS guy/person brings....

I'm wondering how many other repair shops see this kind of thing these days, folks excited about the deal that they perceive to have received only to be informed once a pro looks at the instrument that they just got ripped off.

As such how do you folks handle these situations?  

Thanks!

[Frank Ford]

Oh, yes, indeed we do get lots of that kind of "action" around here.  Every few days I have to deliver the cost/value speech about restoring/repairing instruments of relatively low resale potential.  Sentiment can trump $$ so it's perfectly reasonable to go overboard, but most folks don't want to go that far once they have an appraisal of the situation.

I frequently hear the line, "I found  this on eBay and I got a really good deal on it."  After talking over the condition, we may come to  the point where the new owner concludes that it was a really bad deal, but I would never start by saying it outright myself.

And, yes, I do spend considerable time talking people through the DIY possibilities if they want to get into the project.

[Hesh Breakstone]

Thanks Frank this sounds all too familiar to me and is exactly what I was attempting to describe in my prior post.

I'm with you and never pass a value judgement as to what ever I may think of the deal.  Where it gets sad though as you well know I am sure is when they get a quotation for the required work and realize that "such a deal" may not have been such a deal.

Sometimes though there are things that we can do in accordance with the client budget depending on circumstances.  Last week we saw an old Harmony acoustic "won..." on ebay that was in nice shape actually but as they all do eventually, or most that is, it needed a neck reset.  In this case the new owner was reliving a childhood memory and this guitar was similar to what he once owned.  I had the presence of mind (a rare day for me....) to ask him what kind of music that he played.  Fortunately his taste provided for cords in the first three frets and mostly G, C, and D.  As such with a few nut slots cut, a restring and the thing was playable for him and what he plays.  

[Robbie Collins]

I haven't been in business long but it seems I get more calls about marginal cases than serious repairs. A guy brought a Truetone archtop he's "gotten a good deal on" and wanted a neck reset, refret, humbuckers, cutaway, Bigsby and tobacco sunburst refinish. I said I'd be happy to do it and gave him a price. I also wrote down the names of a couple of guitars available for less than the cost of repairs (Ibanez Artcore; Epiphone Wildkat, Swingster; Gretsch Electromatic, etc.) and suggested he read Premier Guitar to get a technical understanding of guitars.

[Paul Verticchio]

Hesh,

I attribute many of the requests we get to resurrect poor quality to poor or misinformation on the web. There's just enough easily accessible BS out there to create extremely unrealistic expectations.

Civilians have been brainwashed to believe that just because it's old; it's valuable. WRONG. This especially applies to musicians.

Many sellers on e-bay are rip-off artists and routinely misrepresent an instruments identity and value.

I don't want to divert this thread, but if we think it's bad now, wait until all the ultra 'cheap' (not to be confused with 'inexpensive') imports get a few years older and then folks will think they're collector's items too. Or at least the shysters will convince them that it's so :) I view those instruments as disposable as they were not designed to be serviceable in a traditional sense.

Have a good one:)

[Robbie Collins]

True, Paul. This behavior has made many eBay buyers of vintage guitars paranoid. People who honestly state the condition of a vintage guitar on eBay and supply get low-balled by buyers afraid they are being scammed. I speak from experience, having recently tried to sell a perfectly wonderful 1963 Tele Custom and getting email offers half its value. Of course, uncertainty about whether we've reached the bottom of the market is a big factor.

[Ned Knepp]

 I can't address this from the point of view of the professionals but I've been on the other end. When I first started doing this, the only place my brother and I could find used instruments were pawn shops, the local classified ads or music shops. It never dawned on us that we might, possible buy used instruments long distance. Then one day, a friend, in another state, let us know that one of his friends had this "Great deal" in an old guitar that only need a bit of glue to be completely playable. My brother bought it sight unseen, trusting our friend. As it turned out it was a early/ mid 50's Gibson J50 . The "bit of glue" was a bridge which was laying in the bottom of the case.  Fortunately, we decided that we might not be up to repairing this guitar and the repairman we took it too showed us the loose braces and split bridge plate we didn't even know to look for. It cost as much to fix it as it cost us to buy/ship to begin with.  It was a wonderful guitar when he finished but we certainly were not going to make anything on it at that time. 20 years later that was a different story BUT, by then, we realized that were were pretty lucky.

As it turned out, I think the most important lesson we learned in our hunt for "great" used instruments, taught us that everyone's stuff is worth more to them than it was to us and that very few people are willing to be realistic. Nothing has changed. ( Except, of course, my stuff really IS worth more! :)  )

 I have purchased instrument on Ebay but very few and I always assume that I don't see everything that needs attention. In this, I have never been let down. Ten or 12 years ago I think it was possible to find good deals there that might make money for someone that repaired them but I don't think that's been true for a long time. What I can find, IF I know where and how to look as well as how to limit myself, are instruments that are worth repairing for myself. I have several instruments in my collection that I got a "good deal" on once you discount my time in repairing them. I believe that I can recoup my outlay of money and then some on most of not all of them BUT it's a given that I will take a great loss when my time is considered.  That's why this is a hobby. 

If someone were to write a book on purchasing instruments "sight unseen" I think the  the first rule should be that it is, for all practical purposes, "Impossible to purchase a 'Great Deal' that requires you to pay another person to repair it."  If it takes more than a good cleaning, a change of strings and a quick setup, you won't make your money back unless you are prepared to do everything yourself and you don't want to be paid for your time.  People need to understand that any guitar that they find desirable should be worth the price of the best one they can find.

 I have been acquainted with some people that made a living restoring very rare automobiles. One of them once told me that any car  restoration should start with a car in the very best condition you can possible find.  Basket cases ALWAYS cost way more to restore then they are worth unless it's truly rare AND desirable.  Even at that, most of the truly rare/desirable cars around today can probably be recreated from scratch for less than the purchase price of that car restored to show room condition. ( Consider the price of original Cobra's compared to the price of the replica made today... and the replica's are better cars! )

 My opinion is that most people shouldn't buy a used instrument that needs repair, they should be purchasing a good instrument to begin with then pay you guys to keep it good.

[Russell Vance]

Hi Guys,

Agree all - I have a standard position that I deliver to all my customers who ask about how to buy high end gear off Ebay from private sellers  (and similar online secondhand sites) - I tell them that good instruments and amplifiers seldom make it to Ebay - and I give them the examples of the prime instruments and amps that I have for my own and shop purposes - I know the stuff and have heard it or played it live and bought it immediately when the original owner wanted to move to new gear or had to sell.  I finish that by noting that good stuff is getting harder to find - but junk is everywhere and Ebay is the final resting place for junk.   

Obviously blokes, there are exceptions, but this is a good, general  way for the uninitiated to approach any deal.

I also advise them that they should apply the standard business/music industry axiom of "everybody lies" when doing a deal with someone you do not know, who resides in cyberspace, and will take your money before delivering goods.   The upside of this somewhat cynical approach is that if someone comes through with a genuine deal you can rejoice in the thought that the world is not such a bad place after-all, whereas if you find that the seller is a scammer you can also feel happy that you were wise and cautious enough to not be defrauded.

I repeat this info verbatim to anyone who asks.

Rusty.

 

[Ned Knepp]

Rusty, 

 I see some instruments on Ebay that I believe are probably good instruments but they are usually not a "good deal".   I do sometimes see some instruments in the $800-$1200 dollar U.S. range that might be a decent buy IF they are as good as they look but then I remember once seeing a Martin D 35 that was up for sale at a "good" price because it spent a summer day in the trunk of a car. It sure LOOKED great. 

My advice to other people is always to look in the local shops, play everything that catches their eye then go home and do it again next week. It's the only good that that I know of to find a guitar you really want to play and it's worth paying a little more for the instrument you want to get a setup and have a place to return to if there are any problem down the road. Ebay can't top that. 

[Paul Verticchio]

Ned stated:

"If someone were to write a book on purchasing instruments "sight unseen" I think the the first rule should be that it is, for all practical purposes, "Impossible to purchase a 'Great Deal' that requires you to pay another person to repair it."

That's brilliant, Ned.  Kudos. That is not only well stated but absolutely true.  Robbie brings up another good point about resale market fluctuations. Rusty summed it up perfectly. When we get in 'good stuff,' Rusty, it's gone right away...just as you stated.

BTW: I have a feeling that the remaining "good stuff" is covered in dust in the backrooms of mom & pop music stores, under beds, in attics & closets and somehow in every farmer's barn. We still see a '64 Jaguar with hang tags every now and then and dead mint Fender tweed amps. 10 years ago, the came in every week. Now....maybe once a year.

Have a good one guys :)

[Robbie Collins]

I think, Paul, that every mom & pop music store along with every grandmother has looked under their beds and in their closets and attics and have sold everything valuable. Internet fever and Antique Roadshow has made everything into a potential windfall. I think the "good stuff" is long gone. I used to find 3-4 Danelectros at yard sales every year - not any more. I went to a yard sale recently and they had a teenager with a laptop doing price research for her mom and dad as they negotiated on cheap guitars. Crazy.

[Thomas James]

I guess you can't help but run into these. The 'sentimental' repair seems to be always at hand for me. I have several now. If someone brings me something from Craigslist, Ebay, or the family 'Heirloom'. I let them thumb through the Vintage Guitar Guide. I don't do much in the way of current value estimates. The market has been crazy for too many years. I just do the repair estimates and let them decide.

I was in LA for almost thirty years and that is a whole different deal than the little Appalachian town I am in now. I recently had a lady bring me 1926 F Mandolin she was using as a "Christmas ornament".  I did some set-up and repair and gave her the instrument care and insurance speech. I have never felt good about getting that super deal from an unsuspecting customer. It is this type of thing that keeps the world interesting.

[Robert May]

Ebay : rubber neck dumping ground.