Protecting Nitrocellulose Finish

[Emmett]

Hi all,

new here, I was led to FRETS.COM, which i think is a fantastic site, from the Gibson forum.

I posted there inquiring about ideas on how to protect the back of a guitar ( Gibson Hummingbird TV )

from scratches/belt and button damage ect' when playing live.

Save for the obvious solution of changing my wardrobe when playing, I was led to the Scratch Pad product, which looks good... but maybe problems with Nitro' finish.

Was then led to FRETS site and info on applying clear pickguard material

http://www.frets.com/fretspages/luthier/Technique/Guitar/Pickguards...

This seems like perfect solution for me... to apply the guard to the back of guitar to protect from over  damage. Just wondering on how and if it may affect the Nitro' finish? I am waiting on the guitar to be shipped direct from Bozeman factory and also wondered if I should give the Nitro' time to 'cure' befor applying anything to the finish.

Any advice much appreciated.

[Kerry Krishna]

 Emmett, I certainly meant no disrespect. Sorry if I came off that way my friend.  

      Just as an aside: Gibson is living on their reputation developed in the last 100 years.  Most of the folks that you have seen playing Gibsons in your life will have been in the past, and THAT is when Gibson was great.

      A  Gibson Certified tech  I personally know had a  brand new Les Paul come through his shop last year. Owner said that as soon as he touches the neck the whole guitar goes out of tune. What? It sounds like the neck was loose, on a set neck guitar??? And sure enough, the black lacquer around the neck to body join was cracked and flaking surrounding the join.  He tried wiggling the neck, and CRACK, the whole neck came off!    The ONLY thing holding the neck on at all was the lacquer, and the butt end of the set neck!  There was only about a single square inch of wooden real estate that was actually glued!  There was a full quarter inch space between the neck set block on BOTH SIDES!!!  When he called Gibson and asked what the HECK was going on, he could litterally hear the tech shrugging his shoulders!

'There was a bad batch of a few hundred. Don't get mad at me, I didn't ship them to the stores"... He did'nt care. AND it wasn't warranted !  

       Two years ago I was at the local big guitar store. They had both a brand new Southern Jumbo and a Dove hanging there. The electric guitar salesman knew I only played acoustics, he came up and asked if I had played these fantastic guitars. I told him that I had played both and did he want to know what I thought of them?  I said 'I have both a  '52 Southern Jumbo AND a '69 Dove at home, and these two 'acoustics' were so far from the old ones in every realm that I had a have a hard time even considering them as acoustic guitars"    .... Super sloppy binding, mis-centred inlays, a few high frets, still soft lacquer, sloppy neck to body joins and it looked like the Lacquer was piled up a bit at the join (you know that means the neck moved AFTER it was glued and shot with Lacquer!!!) , the Dove'ds bridge was close to a half inch thick, because they changed the neck angle at some point ( mindblowing!!!) ....AND the sound of the guitars was like they were half stuffed with foam rubber... the list went on and on. I told the guy that if he would throw in the new cases I would give him 500 bucks. The guitars were not worth anything. All the company is now, is a name on the headstock. The employees have not been encouraged to care about anything much more than making sure the front of the glossy headstock is polished for 20 years.  

 What Paul said about 400 buck guitars selling for 5k is about 95% accurate  from were I sit. 

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

" Bad batch of a FEW HUNDRED"?

BAD BATCH OF A FEW HUNDRED?

[lonnie james barber]

Hi Emmett;I sympathise with you my friend.I too hate dings and dents on my guitars.Belt buckles ain't the only thing that will scratch your guitar.Levi's have rivets on them that will literally chew the back of a guitar up.Either refrain from wearing damaging clothes or wear a long tshirt to cover the damaging stuff.I too have no use for a Gibson guitar but to each their own.Good luck with your new guitar and wellcome to the forumRegards Lonnie.

[Rory]

Any plastic you can put over nitro is not going to be durable enough to not be damaged itself eventually, especially by a belt buckle. Before you do it, think about how bad it will look when the plastic sheet starts to get damaged or air bubbles get under it. Then youll want to remove it to look perfect again and thats when the trouble will really start. Also, although theres no hard data Ive seen, I would expect that a layer of plastic will dampen the acoustic properties of the back wood. Trust no one here is disrespecting you, just we dont want guitars themselves shown disrespect. How about tucking a small discreet towel or polishing cloth in the front of your pants to cover the belt? Ive seen some people do that to protect the backs of guitars.

Rory

[Emmett]

Thanks for considered reply Kerry,

I didn't mean to start a discussion on Gibson..but it seems i have. I am intrigued to say the least.

regards Emmett

[Paul Verticchio]

Hey Emmett,

I too didn't mean to come off as some sort of elitist a**hole.  This is an honest, opinionated and technical discussion board.  We praise well executed instruments and talented builders.  We also have no reservations "calling out" the snake oil guys. We're very passionate about our craft.

We (or maybe I, as I can't speak for others) base our advice/opinions on real world experiences.  These guys & gals on the board are professionals with decades of experience, not some hack tech at the local GC.  Boy, have they ever soiled the names of all good tech's!  We ain't them. (:

I'll give you two up to date examples of what I'm talking about:

Yesterday I had 3 instruments needing "priority" set-ups; a brand new Gibson Songwriter Deluxe Custom acoustic (msrp $4300) , a Gibson Studio LP (msrp $1800)  and an Epiphone LP (msrp $915).  The prices are for references only as street prices are much less.

The brand new Songwriter (owner received it "factory sealed" from a big box internet retailer the day before): Action at the first fret was .070".   Action at the 12th fret was 3/8". The frets were starting to oxidize.  The ebony FB was extremely rough.  Two of the 6 Grover tuners were defective.  'No problem' I thought until I noticed the bridge saddle was only exposed 1/16" above the bridge.  Break angle of the strings (at the bridge) was about 7 degrees...and that's with factory cut ramps!  I stopped there, rejected the job and advised the owner to deal with Gibson on the MANUFACTURING DEFECTS.  Good luck.

The LP Studio (same customer and circumstances):  Nut was cut uneven.  Inlays looked like a monkey had done them. They were crooked and they used so much fill that I thought it was a "fake Gibson".  The finish on the back of the neck gummed-up on me within a minute of playing.  Tuners has way too much play.  Three high frets that caused the factory action to choke.

As a first step, we installed a replacement set of GENUINE new stock Klusons and replaced the factory strings.  All was well until we fired it up before proceeding with the setup and the neck pickup was dead.  Off came the Klusons, back went the mystery Asian tuners and it's back to Gibson with this one too.

EPI LP: (different customer).  This guitar is 1 year old.  Of course it had the "marginal quality" Epi hardware, electronics & pups but then again, current Epi hardware is about on par with current Gibson hardware.

I did a minor tuning of the nut, re-profiled the bridge saddles to a 12" radius, polished the frets, trussed the neck, changed strings and viola': a great playing & sounding guitar.  Quality on the EPI was noticeably better than the Gibby's.  side note: when the Gibby owner saw the Epi on the bench he said "Gee, maybe I should have saved myself a fortune and gotten one of those!".

These are just two of dozens of Gibson horror stories I could tell.

Just to let you know that I don't summarily dislike all Gibson's products, my personal battleaxe is an Epi 1966 reissue Wilshire.  For what..$350, you can't find a better value in a working-person's solid body guitar.  I'm also eager to try their new 339 copy. BTW: I traded a '85 strat even for the EPI.  As far as co$t; I lost $$ on the deal. As far as value goes, I hit a home run.

I'm just not as brand loyal as most players (except for my strings), and I've been playing since 1965 and professionally since 1967.

My "expensive" acoustic is a 1997 Taylor 714.  However, my favorite acoustic is a 2009 000 sized Tanglewood.

Why do I play the Tanglewood more?  I simply like it's sound and playability better.  It's that simple.  Plus, gigging with a $450 guitar is a lot less stressful than gigging with a $3K guitar.

On the electric side, I've owned (over the years) a '63 strat, a 1974 LP Standard (worst guitar I've ever owned), a 1956 Gretch 6120 "G',a '67 SG Std, lots of tele's & strats & semi-hollows, a 1970 Martin D-28 (the 2nd worst guitar I owned), etc.  In retrospect, this is what has led me to NOT be brand loyal. 

There are affordable treasures out there if you just search them out.

Now, to answer the question you originally asked (if your still awake), IF the plastic has any vinyl component in it's chemistry, it WILL eat into the Nitro finish.  Do your own research (the Scratch Pad website is big on braggadocio but tech spec's are mysteriously absent) and make your own decision.  The only real question I have from that website is: Why does Johnny Hiland use them?  His guitar is supported by his trademark belly and doesn't come anywhere near an abrasive surface.  BTW: I too am a fat guy (only 15% of Johnny) so I can point that out. (:

Best of luck to you & enjoy that new guitar (-:

Paul

 

[William F.Eden]

Well I stiil stand behind what said in the first place.But i didn't think for one minet it would cause so much trouble for you. It kind of reminded me of my late mother in law who when she had a new floor rug put down she would have the installer put the old one over the top to save the new one.Bill...............

[Kerry Krishna]

 Paul, you never come off like that. You are more than polite in all your posts.  It is also easy to see that you are passionate about your craft. You have inadvertently helped me many times over the last year too.  Thanks to all the regular posters on this site. I (and hundreds of others) would be in a lot of trouble if your were not here to help...    

[Kerry Krishna]

 Also, Emmett, usually I am in amongst the first saying 'Welcome!' to new folks. Sorry I forgot in your case!  This thread might end soon, but the info on this site is densely packed, and I am sure you will find lots of info here on a bunch of different repair subjects.  We really are glad that you are here!

[Paul Verticchio]

Thanks so very much Kerry.  You are TOO kind and I am truly humbled by your statement.

None of us "know it all" and that's why this forum exists.  I read each post and mentally file away the information.  All the members have posted info that assists me everyday.

We had an "unusual" issue with a vintage instrument a couple of months ago that had everyone in the shop puzzled.  I researched the forums archive & found the exact info I needed.  When the repair was completed, the Dealer asked me if I had sold my soul for the solution.  I said "No, I just went to the best collective of repair folks on the planet".

And again, Mr. Ford, thanks for the marvelous opportunity to share (:

[Kerry Krishna]

 One of us should write a song about Frank, that's for sure...

[Emmett]

Paul

thanks for taking the time to share your experience and thoughts. I appreciate it.
I'm on a huge learning curve regarding build/set up of guitars. I have been playing for over 20 years and have traveled the world with a guitar over my shoulder. I'm a musician more than anything, and have in the past not been too bothered about the fine details of an instrument. If it sounds good and I like the feel of it then that's been my main thoughts on the matter I suppose. Incidentally; my main guitar for the last 10 years or so and the one that has been around the world with me, has been a little old Seagull, which for me has been a great guitar. I have had many a player comment on how nice she plays and sounds.
So as you can see i am no aficionado on guitars. ( I do own a few other guitars, a couple of mid-range Yamaha acoustics from the 70's and 90's, along with a Yamaha SG 2000 electric and others )
I have always wanted a Gibson acoustic. I am not a rich man, so my being able to afford such a guitar at this time is a blessing for me. As you know the Hummingbird TV has list price of over $5000, so it's not a purchase to be sneezed at.
I take on board the comments made that Gibson may be living off their reputation from the past. I really don't know.
The guitar I am awaiting to arrive from Gibson is actually a replacement of the same model I had purchased from a store, which I had to return due to major build issues !
I won't go into the details here, but will post again when the new guitar arrives.
So my OP here was an attempt to get some expert advice on placing the clear pick guard material sourced from LMC that Frank Ford uses in the link included in the OP, onto a nitro' finish. ( I now realize I should have taken more time navigating this site to find the way to PM Frank, but I get the impression he's a busy man and thought I'd ask here also :))
If you take a look at his demonstration it is clear to see the pick guard is hardly visible when applied correctly.
Quote:
"The job is done now, and the pickguard is hardly visible from across the room."
Now it seemed to me this would be an ideal solution to protect the back of a guitar also. Some people here and else where seem to think I'm crazy for wanting or even thinking to do this. Why? :)
If you could see the condition my lil' ol Seagull is in you may understand my motives better. In reality this new guitar is going to get its fair share of knocks/dings/scratches and God knows what else over it's time with me. It's unavoidable considering the amount of traveling and playing I do. As I have stated I'm not a rich man, and this is a big purchase for me. But I am buying this guitar to PLAY, do I want to only play it at home in a jump suit made out of the finest Egyptian cotton.... NO.... do I want to only bring it out of it's case on special occasions and swoon over it... NO.... I'm gonna play it to death... and take it with me wherever i may wander. BUT.....I am going to look after and treat it with more respect than I have ever done previously with any one of my guitars. (If it doesn't deserve this respect I'll get a different instrument)
:
I just thought if I can give it a little more protection... why not.
:
I also thought about the material changing the tone/response of the instrument as mentioned in another reply. I will see what the affect will be...
Another quote from Frank:
"Later, if I need to take the pickguard off, I'll warm the area with a hairdryer to soften the adhesive, and it'll come off cleanly. Any residual adhesive is easy to remove with a little mineral spirits."
.
I guess I'll just have to experiment with this guitars ( or whatever guitar i end up with ) finish. I still feel it's a good idea to try, so.
Again I would like to point out I am not particularly over concerned about adding 'mojo' to my guitar, I welcome it., The reason i went for a new guitar is I want to add my own mojo to it over the years, and I didn't feel I knew enough about guitars to buy such an expensive used model. From my recent research and especially the FRETS.COM site I now feel 100% more confident about what to look for in a good guitar, so thanks for that.
Whether Gibson will live up to my expectations: I will wait and see. The model I originally purchased sounded great to me and if it wasn't for the issues I had ( which where major ) I would still have it, and I probably wouldn't have been led down this road of discovery that I am currently on. So in a way it's been a positive experience.
Thank you all for your time and responses. Excuse this long post, but thought i would take some of my time to reply :)
I will keep any who are interested informed about the Hummingbird when she arrives.

regards
emmett