Gibson vintage replacement tuners....

[Mike Kolb]

On the bench is a customer's '75 Gibson Les Paul Custom with old tuners that are worn and need to be replaced.  The owner will keep the old tuners in the case for posterity, but he's also a stickler for authenticity and wants the new tuners to be just like the old ones.

I ordered a set of Gibson Deluxe tuners but they're not quite "there".  The new knobs are a little shorter and have only one ring at the base instead of two.

The string shaft is a bit taller and the bushing (while it fits into the old hole) is a threaded bushing, vs. the "push-in" version that it replaces. Additionally, the new shaft is rounded instead of being flat.

The new ones will work, but the appearance is just "off" enough to make the owner a little nervous about it.  

So, are we stuck, or.... is there a purchase option out there that I haven't found yet? All thoughts appreciated.  

[Frank Ford]

WD Products is the owner of the Kluson trademark these days, and supplies a fair assortment of appropriate vintage replica items.

Do a search for 

Kluson SD90SLN

and you should turn up the gears you need.

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

Hi Mike,

As always, Frank cuts to the chase. You need to add "DR" as a suffix to get the double ring version. I PM'd a picture of an old set I have for sale, but (rest assured) the new set will be better quality, complete and cheaper.

I've also found trying to repack those old machines is an exercise in futility. Bad machines are bad machines, no matter how much grease you can mash in.

[Mike Kolb]

Thank you!

... the WD tuners ( SD90SLN-DR) come about as close as I've found yet.  Not perfect, but what is these days?  I'll e-mail WD's customer support with my pics and see what they can add to the stew, if anything. 

Kudos to FF and Joshua for helping me with my homework!  (PS to Joshua, I PM'd you regarding your tuner offer). 

[Mike Kolb]

David Lewis in the service dept at WD Products was kind-enough to respond to my inquiry and he indicated that, after looking at my pics, the tuners in question were some sort of "transition" tuners Gibson used on the LP's.

From 1972 on, they used waffleback tuners but, sometime in the mid-70's, they started sourcing-away from Kluson when the supply got sketchy and they'd use Schaller as a supplier for those "dry spells".  

He thinks the tuners I'm trying to replace may be some oddball Schallers that were few & far-between, making the odds of finding them -at a reasonable cost- rather slim.

Just for info, he sent this shot of an early-70's LP Custom with the tuners that were considered standard at that time.  

PS: he was very helpful, friendly and prompt...   customer service attributes that were duly noted! 

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

Mike,

I meant to say earlier that the guitar on your bench is a Standard, not a Custom. The Customs had the waffle back Klusons (unless they didn't). The standards had Kluson deluxe (like the ones you're trying to replace) which started out saying "Kluson Deluxe" which changed to "Gibson Deluxe". After that they had some crappy tuners by Schaller which always got replaced with the "good" Schallers.

I think the Gibson machines you got are made by Gotoh and are probably good machines. The new Klusons look more authentic (especially with a bent post).

Joshua

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Mike.

Just for clarification, the photos you posted in your OP are of a LP Standard, not a Custom. Big difference in tuner specs.

Having owned a '75 LP Standard ( in 1975), I can attest that replacing the original tuners with almost any brand will be a MAJOR improvement. 

When contacting WD, apply for a wholesale account. Their wholesale prices are between 45%-50% off retail. Their customer support via phone is wonderful. Their tech's will tell you what's "the good stuff" and what's been created with snake oil.

Also, Gotoh offers their version of the same tuner. They also offer several post sizes and specification including the flat top posts of the original tuner.   Here's the best distributor that I've worked with:  http://www.japarts.ca/     They are happy to get custom requests and they work with Gotoh Japan to get you the spec's you need.  Until I found their site with all sorts of good info, I didn't realize how many variations of "a tuner" are available. They're a small shop and GREAT folks.

One more thing I found out just fyi: Gibson's current Deluxe tuning machines are made by Ping. Ping also makes many of the Kluson tuners, Grover, Wilkinson etc.  I ordered a set of Grover 135 keys to upgrade a customers 2014 LP Traditional only to find out that the Grovers are the same key as the Gibsons. The difference? The Grovers are about half the price of the Gibson keys. The great thing about the 135 series is that they use a cast baseplate instead of the pressed/stamped plate.

I hope that wasn't TMI.

Best of luck & kindest regards,

P :)

[Mike Kolb]

Thanks Joshua... you confirmed my initial thoughts.  No, Paul... NEVER too much info!  I appreciate all the details.  

I thought something was strange when the owner brought it in, as the swore up & down it was a "Special Custom" (whatever the heck that meant)...  even though the trussrod cover said Standard, it had no back binding, no block inlays and no headstock binding.  Hmmm.

At the time, it didn't mean a whole lot to me since the job was to replace the bad tuners.  Wow what a can of worms this has opened, eh?!  

My job now is to convince the owner that, unless he wants to spend a fortune in research time and then me trying to bird-dog the parts, he's better off to stick to the first plan: put the old original tuners away, install the nice new Klusons (that I've already paid-for, thankewverymuch) and enjoy 'em to their fullest.

I've come-away with a new appreciation for the help here!  Thanks for the tip on Japan Parts and Ping as sources down the road. Live & learn!  

[Paul Verticchio]

Mike,

If the LP has full sized humbuckers, it's one of 500 Standards done as a 'market test run'. I had the exact same one. I replaced the stock tuners w/Grover Rotomatics less than a week after its first gig as the stock tuners were [insert derogatory term of your choice].

It's a limited run (no extra value for that) LP Std with full sized HB's as opposed to stock mini-hb's. Unbeknownst to me at the time was that full sized humbuckers had been a 'special order' option since '71 (I believe). 

The MSRP on the limited run Standard w/ full size HB's was $850 including the hard case.  I think the MSRP on a LP Std w/ mini humbuckers was $650. Full sized HB's would have been a 10% upcharge. Soooo.... I can claim to be one of the first ignoramuses 'had' by Gibson's crafty & deceptive advertising. Remember that back then, terms like MAP and Street price were non existent.  Luckily, the mom & pop shop I bought the axe from gave we Union Musicians a whopping 10% discount off MSRP.

The silver lining results from the research I did for future purchases which added a LOT of deep info to my overall knowledge base.

Gibson instruments made from 1970-1980 were some of the crappiest instruments they ever produced. That's not only my opinion, but is shared among all the tech's I speak with.  Replacing original components do not affect their value at all based on my previous statement. Almost anything you do to them is an upgrade.

If you have the time & inclination, could you let me know how much that gtr weighs. Mine was 14.5 lbs!!!! I'm just curious.

I hope some of that info can be passed along to your customer so he/she is knowledgeable as to what he/she has.

Thanks again my friend :)

[Mike Kolb]

Thanks for the additional info, Paul.  Now, keep in mind that all I've got is an old bathroom scale so the accuracy may not be 100%, but I just weighed the guitar and it's somewhere between 9.5 and 10.5 pounds.

It's probably safe to call it 10 lbs, since I got 4 slightly different readings with 4 separate weighs!

Interesting to hear about the "limited run Standard"... it's sounding more & more like what this particular guitar may be.

Here's a picture of the front, but I *believe* the owner said he had changed-out the pickups somewhere along the line.

Oh yeah, I'll share all of this info with the customer, as he and I will have BOTH learned a few things here.  Muchas gracias! 

[Paul Verticchio]

That's the one. Boy, the owner has taken GREAT care of it. I love my customers that do that :)

Thanks for the weight info, Mike. A 10 pounder can be considered a 'lightweight'.

We share & we learn, as I have from you on many occasions. A big "Thank You" to you too, man.

Time for me to get back to the bench. Take care :)