bridge V pick up.

[GEOFFREY BARNARD]

hi guys help required?
ye i have a theory whih i shall attempt to explain and perhaps one of you kindly might enlighten me.

would it be correct to say that an electric pick recieves the sound source from string vibration?
also there position is to meet the string vibrating sweet spots etc.
so how would the methoud of mounting a pick up to the body be of vital importance as to tone signal..?

do pick ups recieve tonal values from type of wood, density of wood , shape of body,solid or hollow body, depth of mounting posistion etc./?
i recognise the string tension treble bass effects , but if a pick up recieves signal from strings, then why is the mounting / body important?
i thought the winding of individuall types of pick ups altered their tone. so why does it matter on the mounting . surely the bridge posistion mounting is the overiding tone reciever which then translates that given tone quality to the string vibration and then this sound /tone is recieved fron the pick up.


perhaps i dont have the art of explaining in short . is the bridge the important tone producer. and therefore pick ups whilst important are not the most crucial tone factor.??
any one get the jist of this .
if so i would enjoy some feedback help. thanks guys.
geoff.

[Penql]

OK, I'll bite, ... I can't give you an answer, but I can add some things to think about;

everything vibrates, more or less, and all that vibration, resonant or otherwise, eventually winds up as part of the sound

whether one particular part has a dramatic or subtle or inaudible effect on tone is so hotly debated that I think your ears are the best and final judge

pickups can be microphonic - they can produce sound that does not originate from the strings at all, try tapping a pickup with a pencil or something. a pickup which is mounted loosely may sound different if it is mounted stiffly.

[Rob Mercure]

Geoff,

With respect it seems that American English isn't your native language and while I think I know what you are getting at there are parts that confuse me - and I suspect others. Perhaps if you've got a friend who is more familiar with our particular corruptions of the English language s/he might help you recompose your questions,

Otherwise you might want to find a tutorial concerning string movement and notice that as a string vibrates that the shape of the vibrational envelope differs from place to place and this differs with tension, mass, and length (and other stuff). So where a pickup is placed matters and you obviously don't want to place one where it interferes with your hand movements.

Pickups themselves are a complex issue - I provides some primer information to another thread that you might look up. But different pickups have different characteristics and placement affects this as does amplification choice.

That's as much as I can think to answer now but maybe if you edited and reposted we'd be able to help more.
Rob

[Ron Frazier]

In picking a string you need to find the sweet spot to get the sweetest sound. Try picking a acoustic string from close to the bridge to half way up the neck. What do you hear. Yes it is different each place. With magnetic pickups you pick up the string vibrations as it breaks the magnetic pull of the string. Try a brass wound string and see what difference it makes. Move the pickup up closer to the string and see what happens as you get within the pull of the magnet. I believe it the pickup is mounted solid it will give a different sound than if it is spring mounted and floats free. If the body wood is different softer or harder like alder to hard maple I am told it makes a difference in sound. I cant hear it .

I am told that the magnetic pickup needs to be mounted in the sweet spot to get the best sound. How come the placement of 1 2 3 or 4 pickups. Can they all be in the sweetest spot?

If one pickup is mounted in the sweet spot in a open string what happens to the sweet spot when fretted.

In the late 50s I had a pattend on a bridge mag pickup suspended between the string and a banjo top.. The sound was different.

If you use a mikerphone of piezo or contact pickup on acoustic guitar it is also a different sound. It seems to pick up a woody sound.

[Rob Mercure]

Hey Ron,

As I hoped you noticed I was tryin to inform Pengl that the sweet spot varies with tension, frencuency, string mass and other factors. Thus there are many sweet spots and electric guitar builders trry to optimize those that sustaina and "sing" while acoustic musicians - in the never ending quest for the best amplification scheme - find sweet spots in places such as under the 12 fret marker of a flat top or perhaps around the nut (when I live mic my guitar I like a brighter dynamic mic pointed at teh 12th fret getting about 40% of the signal with a "vocal" type mic on the lower soundhole and 60% of the mix - and even this for for all tunes)

I think out questioner needs some physics fundamentals with proper traslation.

Rob

[Ned Knepp]

I don't know much a out electric guitars but I remember my physics class in college enough to know that a vibrating string has many "node" points. On a long string with a low frequency you can actually see these. The string doesn't vibrate back and forth in one long movement. There are many nodal points where the string vibrates in short segments. The nodes appear to be almost completely still. The over all effect is of a long sine wave with many points of almost no vibration separated by widely vibrating areas. When you "Chime" a string on a guitar, you are stopping the string at one of the nodal points.

I don't know but I would guess that an electric pickup would work better if it were mounted near the middle of the space between nodes. This would allow the most string movement through the magnetic field generated at the poles in the pickup and thus a stronger signal generated in the windings. .

If this is true you may be able to sort of map out the nodes by chiming the string and making a note/mark where the strings chime best then select the area that is closest to directly between these points. Just be aware that each strings is a different pitch/frequency and will have different nodal points.

That's just a guess so don't take my word for it. I know a lot about electronics but not much about electric guitars so it's completely possible that Russel or someone else that knows a lot about them will come along and tell us that this is just be a load of hogwash.

Ned

[GEOFFREY BARNARD]

hi guys .thanks . so far.

keep going..
sound advice and comment. all valid. so lets just go a little bit deeper .at the risk of causing offence or upset .
i am aware of the physics also many other aspects of guitars and so far you are all correct.
well done you guys.
OH AND JUST PERCHANCE. my most humble apologies for misuse of the American / English language .
as well as my somewhat feeble attempt at daring to pose a question. silly me i have been found to be much wanting, nay lacking in the explaination department.

oh oh bothersome silly me, stupid me.

how thick and dumb i must be.
my apologies.
but still the question remains. bridge Vpick up. which gives the tone to the signal.

perhaps this is how it might be....................
_strirg recieves signal from touch effect;
signal recived through pick ups..

vibration sends signal to the bridge.
body resonance transmits sound + tone to universial space.

apart from variations concerning nodes, strength of vibration, speed of vibration, string length, string gauge etc .
pick up depth, position, , type of pick up used etc.
body design . semi acoustic, acoustic, hollow, solid ect. oh yeah and those spanish and classical things.
those old fashiond things with plasticky strings.etc.

which of the signal recievers IE,, bridge or pick up creates the superior true tonal characteristics.????????????

thanks for the help.
thank you for your kindness in reply.

corruptions? recompose? from one such as I???

INDEED..



bye for now.

GEOFFREY BARNARD..

????????

[Penql]

OK, first your English is fine, no worries :)

Second, I think a couple of people already pointed out it's a system, each part of the system (wood, strings, pickups, bridge etc.) contributes to the sound. A well set up bridge with horrible pickups might sound bad. Great pickups with a poorly set up bridge or a bridge made out of something like rubber will sound bad.

It's like asking the question: which makes better pasta? Whole wheat flour, Semolina flour or cooking the pasta? You might like wheat, you might not but I'm pretty sure you won't like it at all if you don't cook it. So let's say that the bridge is like cooking the pasta, it needs to be done right.

[Ron Frazier]

Penql

The pasta may taste good to you but maybe not to me so the guitar sound may be what you are trying for but I may not like it.

this is a answer that I posted to Redd volkaert Merle Haggard's lead guitarest for 7 years and I will post his replay as I got it

.
Three pickups are hard to have three sweet spots and still be
aesthetically aligned.
I've found the sweet spots are easiest found by hitting a harmonic
across the strings,
and wherever the harmonic is strongest, that's where the pickup might
sound its best directly under the strings in that "sweet spot"
as well as the type of pickup and how its mounted, stiff or springs
or . . . like you posted.

This man knows his Electric guitars.

My thought was that when a string is fretted the sweet spot is moved but the harmonic I guess will not move!!!!

Wow Some people like Martins and some like Taylor's.

Ron

[GEOFFREY BARNARD]

i like martins but prefer taylors.

why? got one of each . the talor just has the edge for t is brighter and more responsive .
the martin sounds just a wee tad to mellow for my taste.
lovely tone and warmth from the martin but the taylor just rings so clean and bright.

thanks for your answers.
trouble is i have yet to fit the bridge and pick ups to a semi solid mahogany body.

the body has been sliced into two slabs .
the inside of the body has been sponned/scooped / so as to creat a hollow type resonance in the bridge position .yet retains as much solidity as one can within the overall body. suppose its might be termed a semi solid..
so before i fit the bridge and pick ups i thought i would pose a few questions which come to mind.
dont want to get it wrong.
the mahogany is to rare to spoil. if you would like to know more about this project then just ask away.
thanks again.

oh yeh also looking for a router bit that can cut a raised bead along the outer rim of both edges back//front,of the body to leave a perfect bead of wood similar to a violin etc.?????? any help here.
Geoff.