Ibanez Lonestar LE-405-WN Saddle, Rocks in slot on top of pickup

[John Yungbluth]

Pleased to present for your consideration. . . . . . . . .

I recently purchased a 1986 Ibanez Lonestar Series LE-405-WN, a thin lined body acoustic electric with a few issues.

This post concerns the saddle.  The original (?) is a thick, plastic, (.20) that sits on top of the pickup. It split under the G string, which also happens to be a high point that the saddle can rock on.  The saddle is crumbling along the break.

I've checked the bottom of the slot and it is flat.  The bottom of the pickup is flat but there is a high point on the top.  The pickup is coated and sealed, and is also about as wide as the slot.  Nearly .20 wide.  There are no active electronics inside, just volume and tone pots. 

I really don't want to sand off the bump, fearing to damage the pickup since it is so much larger that present day pickups I've seen.

The new saddle will be bone, can I slowly sand out a indent to match this bump to keep as much surface contact as possible between the saddle and the pickup?

Second concern.  The saddle break points are positioned differently then I've seen before for an acoustic.  This is a molded piece and doesn't look altered.

The high E is back about 3/4 of the way.

The B is to the very back.

The G, D, A are at a mid way point.

The low E is at the very back, same as the B string.

I never tried to string it up and check the intonation with the broken saddle.  The old strings on it were a .056-.011 set.  I plan to use .053-.012.

If I have to shape the bottom of the saddle to fit the pickup, all my adjusting for string height will have to be done on top. 

Any suggestions for proper procedure would be appreciated.

John

  

  

[Paul Verticchio]

Can you post a picture or two of what you're describing?  It will be VERY helpful.

The saddle is a typical 80's 'over-sized' Ibanez saddle. The way you describe its intonation design is exactly the way they were made. I wouldn't be concerned with its intonation until you have fresh strings on it. I realize that won't happen until you have the pickup issue solved, so let's table the intonation discussion for then, OK? :)

Once you get us a picture of the saddle/pickup arrangement (I've never encountered one like you describe), I'm sure you'll be offered many possible solutions. The one that comes to my mind first is to get rid of the stock pickup, fill the saddle slot & route for a 1/8" or 3/32" standard saddle and install a fresh and modern UST. The reason being, that saddle arrangement Ibanez used is archaic and was problematic. You'll save yourself immense time & trouble sourcing parts if you perform this change over.  I can assure you that Hoshino (Ibanez)  does not stock parts for instruments that are over a few years old.

Once you get pictures to us, the forum can further discuss the possible outcome.

Have a great week :)

Paul

[John Yungbluth]

  Here are a few pictures.  I did shave a little plastic rise off the top of the pickup at the high point around the G string area.

I did get the old bridge glued up and it had an uneven bottom rising on the treble side. I sanded it flat and in combination with adjustment to the top of the pickup unit it now sits flat.

Tomorrow some new strings, and start to check out the intonation.

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi John.

I have a much better understanding of your original post now.

You performed the correct modifications for that situation. 

I hope the saddle installation & intonation go well for you.

Have fun,

P :)

[John Yungbluth]

Here's a picture of the top of the  original saddle.  I rubbed a pencil lead across the break point of the strings.

I hope the old saddle holds up long enough for me to get benchmarks for the intonation as it is now.

HELP NEEDED HERE!

Then when I start to shape the top of the new bone piece I plan to radius the top, start a little tall on the height and sharp on 12th fretted notes.

As I drop the strings to their final height by sanding down the bottom of the saddle, keeping the string break points and top radius unchanged, will I be raising, making sharper, the 12th fretted notes?  Where I can then adjust length to the break points to better dial in the intonation once I settle on the string height.

Am I basking in my own verbal bull**** here?  Heading for a major dose of FUBAR?

Or does this make any sense at all?

I failed to mention at the beginning of this post that I am a 20+ year hobbyist, wanting to do things right.  Not a paid professional.

But I want my results to be as professional as possible.

[Paul Verticchio]

I commend your desire to do top quality work, John.

Making a 'standard' bone saddle takes a bit of experience to get correct the first time. The one you're replacing will be more difficult for a novice.

My only suggestions are: 1. Buy enough bone blanks to allow yourself some 'oooops' mistakes. We've all botched many saddles & nuts along the way.  I still do on occasion and I've been doing this for 45+ years.And 2. Consider making some hardwood blanks the same size as the bone blank and "practice" on those. The skills you develop will assist you in learning shaping and filing. Use a VERY high quality file on the bone nut and clean it often while working.

Again, your most valuable asset right now is your attitude. If you strive for ultra-high quality, you'll achieve your goal. It's refreshing to see a serious young man enter the trade as opposed to many of the many "gimme a cheat method" hacks out there today.

The forum is rooting for you. You CAN & [ultimately] WILL nail this project and gain a lot of great experience in the process,

Best regards,

Paul

[Andrew]

As you lower the saddle to its final height you should in theory be making the 12th fret note flatter, because youre stretching the string less to fret that note. Sometimes this effect is pronounced, sometimes it seems nonexistant (to me anyway).

I like Paul's suggestion of wood blanks for practice pieces. Some common hard maple should do. Id try to get them flatsawn - i.e. The annular rings parallel to the height. Less likely to split this way. You could also wet them out with thin ca glue to make them more durable.

I would counter Paul's suggestion that you need a very high quality file for this. I use some really cheap needle files on bone all the time to remove waste and do most of the shaping. I only do the finishing up work with the high grade files, and even then the cheaper ones would work. Mind you my assortment of needle files counts near 50, of different sizes and cuts and shapes, but I probably only use 3 to 5 for saddles. None of this is to say that good files arent worth it, or that you need 50 needle files. But if youre only doing this occasionally, a couple half decent ones will work just fine if the teeth are well defined as long as you use your wits and you have the size you need.

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Andrew.

Thanks for bringing up 'files'. Let me clarify....

To me a "HQ" file is one that is appropriate for the task at hand.  I should have said "a stout file with a #00 cut".

In my experience, needle files are commonly #2 cuts and are too fine & flexible for this task & clog quickly, even when using chalk to reduce clogging. It CAN be done, but it will take him hours longer. He'll need to hog away a lot of bone. Needle files will be fine for final adjustment & cosmetic considerations.

I've made 4 or 5 similar oversize Ibanez style bone saddles in the last 20 years & it's been a while. A 1/4" square Grobet w/a #00 cut immeasurably reduced my task time.  Final cleanup employed #2 cut needle files.

There's a need for many different sizes & cuts of files in our craft. In John's case, and since he seems to be looking at a long term repair interest, these Stew-Mac files would be a sensible investment.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Files/Nut_and_S...

An investment in quality tools pays off in greatly reduced task time & frustration.

Thanks again, Andrew. Have a great weekend, my friend :)

[John Yungbluth]

Paul and Andrew, thank you for your insights on my project.

I've completed the bone saddle and have the intonation set very close I believe.  At this point it is about +3-5 cents according to my Korg CA-30 tuner and my Peterson clip on strobe.  I'm going to let it sit for a few days and see if everything holds as is.

I also have a mix of about 20 -30 files I've accumulated over the years for nut and saddles. Only my resent nut files are actually guitar specific models.  Tell me more about using chalk on them.  Is that to make cleaning out debris easier? 

Andrew, thanks for the information correcting my assumption about dropping the over-all height and the effect on the 12th fretted note.  That was my 1968-1980 self coming back again, see below.

Paul, I need to rephrase a sentence from my first post that made me sound young.  It should have read more like:  

I was a amateur hack from about 1968 to 1980. I thought I knew everything before I knew anything.   An increasingly serious hobbyist ever since.  Now that I'm retired, I can get moving on the 30 + project guitars  I've accumulated and maybe build a kit or two.

Thank you again gentleman.

Watch for my next post on body damage to this same guitar.  Once more in search of options.

[Paul Verticchio]

GREAT job, John.

Sorry about the age confusion. At 64, EVERYONE is 20 years old to me ;)

Chalk? Yes. By drawing the file across the chalk or vice-versa, it keeps the teeth form clogging. It also makes for a much easier cleaning. It's an ancient machinists' enhancement.

Until next time.... :)

[Martijn Steen]

In a fit of nostalgia I looked for an Ibanez brochure of 1985 somewhere in pile of old papers some time ago. In that year ('85) I bought my Yamaha western guitar which I still own (very few items that are now longer in my possession). The reason for buying that guitar was that the Ibanez 'equivalent' was no longer in stock. Never felt sorry for that decision but the brochure was kept. On the front of it the top model, the LE-405WN. Turning the pages I wondered if Google would 'know' this guitar as in pictures of it being played. One of the first links was that of an auction site in Switserland. A 405WN in mint condition was offered for a price that took me less than a second to hit the button. It's my favorite study guitar for two years now.

Seeing the bridge on the picture some postings ago I guess the one of my copy has been replaced over the years, although the 'setting' is about the same as described.

Being a novice guitarist as far as playing on stage is concerned I once tried to plug in into my Fender Hot-Rod amplifier. Not a bright idea. I'm wondering if that's because of the limitations of the pick-up or that it's just the type of amplifier that kills the sound. 

[Martijn Steen]

Shot from my copy.

[John Yungbluth]

Martijn, that's the same saddle as the broken original one on my 405WN.

There is no internal preamp in the guitar, but mine will play through various small practice amps I have sitting around.

Not sure what you exactly meant in the last paragraph.  Do you get any sound, or uncontrollable feedback or static? 

If you like your mint version of this guitar, take a look at this second post I have about my guitar. 

Ibanez Lonestar LE405-WN missing a portion of the top lamination.

or when mint goes bad. . . . . . .