equal temperment ? intonation ?

[FRANK]

here we go any way i replaced a roller nut with brass and bone using the brass almost like a 0 fret not quite its there to fill remain g space from where the roller was accommodated to equal out the intonation correctly i dial calipered in the brass and the bone to correct specs like this from a space that was .229 i filled .110 with brass and the rest with bone to equal out the difference of the displaced wood from the finger board and place the new nut into proper potion for correct intonation and the resulting factor being that i have perfect intonation at the 12th and good intonation at the 19th but the complaint came from frets 1 and 2 where he said maby i need to lower the strings ? i dont know maby a smig ill cu a bit more ?for action i guess i was told 3 /32eds at the 17th fret for big E and 2 1/2 32eds at the hi e and align the strings to radius with the finger board this is after checking neck nut saddles ? i tried to explain equal temperament in different instruments and found a loss for words go please feel free to enlighten me again please i need to be able to be sure about this nut here look guys

[Greg Mirken]

Paul, from your first photo it looks like the point of contact on your replacement nut is further back (from the first fret) than on the roller nut, making the first fret space too long. Is that an illusion from the camera angle?

[FRANK]

well you know Greg the intonation at the 12th and 19th it is perfect it seams that when i play for example the A string at the b note second position it rolls sharp 2 cents and it is almost that way all the way up the the 12th although as it progresses it gets better and presto 12th fine 19th fine i played it lowered the nut a smig and i felt fine and i found it to be OK with my standards on a strobe , Although i need better info on equal temperament in instruments I have not checked them all but I suspect Equal Temperament is what he has had in mind because i believe he is using digital equipment and can read his own intonation doing so may have him asking me a question i haven't answered right ever so anyone enlighten me please help me understand fretted instruments better by helping me under stand why it is like this now i under stand piano tuners will do this throw it off a few cents here and there for tuning purpose ? but frets on a fender tele ? will bad nut or high action be a culprit for bad intonation pressing hard? what about truss rod adjustments and acoustic instruments should also have to worry about adverse weather conditions for example leaving in you car when the sun is beating 120 .??,do all guitars?? do this from position 1 -12 roll sharp or flat a cent or two till they get there at the 12th fret and again down from the 12-24th and the 12 and 24 have the intonation zone so the speak ? is that it for guitars and fretted instruments or am i way off ?

[Len Biglin]

Hi Paul,you need to check the nut height , the strings should be hi enuff to only buzz on 1st fret if you pick too hard, but sweet if you pick normally, if you have that right and the fretted notes play sharp on frets 1,2,3 then the nut is too far away from the 1st fret.The intonation at the 12th &up is then corrected by moving the saddle's position ( 12th too sharp-make the string longer . 12th flat - make the string shorter ). Your problem is not about equal temperament , get the nut right then move the saddle to get the inton. correct on higher number frets.Len

[Tim Mace]

Forget the equal temp theory when it comes to guitar...it ain't gonna happen but you can acheive an overall well in tune state.

[FRANK]

tim can you go into detail on your strobe method please

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

Looks like a nut height problem to me, too.

"will bad nut or high action be a culprit for bad intonation pressing hard?"

Yes.

[FRANK]

hey Jeffery if you are referring to photo 3 than your right it did just leave here though with the owner, He was satisfied with it i strobed it out and showed him it was gona be OK thanks i did cut the nut a bit, and also I believe because he has the 3 saddle tele that 1 saddle needed a bump also please if any one can refer me to something I can understand about equal temperament what it means to guitar luthiers and how do we best explain frets on a guitar intonation wises to my customers it would be great I keep asking but nope Although i need better info on equal temperament in instruments I have not checked them all but I suspect Equal Temperament is what he has had in mind because i believe he is using digital equipment and can read his own intonation doing so may have him asking me a question i haven't answered right ever so anyone enlighten me please help me understand fretted instruments better by helping me under stand why it is like this now i under stand piano tuners will do this throw it off a few cents here and there for tuning purpose ? but guitars are not perfect either?especially mine far from perfection but i try

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

Ayiyyi...3 saddle Teles are an exercise in futility, for intonation with an unwound G. They come from the age of the wound G string, when a D&G on the same saddle would sorta kinda intonate okay.

It also sounds like a possible CFH ( Customer From Hell ) scenario: a guitar that plays and sounds great, seems to be in tune and intonating well by ear, but he's pointing at a strobtuner, going, "See? See how it's 2 cents off?"

[Ned Knepp]

Paul,
The bit of reading I have done on scale temperaments is just enough to let me know why I have to tweak the B string on almost every guitar I've ever played. From what I understand, the reality of equal temperament is that we have swapped perfect note to note intonation for the ability to move from key to key without rebuilding our fret board for each key change. I don't think most of the inaccuracies in our scales can be heard by a lot of people , maybe most people. Not on a well setup guitar, anyway.

Maybe I just don't understand. No offense meant to you Paul but the scale on a guitar is equally tempered before you changed the nut and it was still equally tempered after you changed the nut. I don't know why your client wanted the nut changed but unless this was the original problem, it seems to me that he was talking about something that he didn't hear before you worked on the guitar but did hear after you changed the nut. Like the others here, that sounds to me like the strings were too high at the nut. It also sounds to me like you found the problem and fixed it.

Ned

[FRANK]

THANK you for shedding light Ned your first paragraph says a lot yea it resolved with a nut cut and a shimmy of a saddle but your explanation was a good one thanks Ned

[Tim Mace]

I accept the fact that my instruments are almost always perfectly in tune as I have almost perfect pitch.No strobe technique involved. String length,string height,finger pressure all contribute to tuning blems.also

[FRANK]

supper ear is your new nick name OK wow no strobe how about when sound is happening and you cant hear you guitar clearly ok I will heir you to put into tune all my guitars by ear and i will pay you good 1 afternoon i need about 400 guitars tuned call me MR Tim