Great Stradivarius article

[Mark Pollock]

I picked up a copy of "Skeptic" magazine the other day, and found a GREAT article on the myths that have surrounded Strad violins for years. It's a thourough debunking, and put me in the mind of "Why are certain guitars worth PILES of freakin' money, while other equally worthy guitars are deplored?"

 

http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201101/2274226291.html  (This appears to be a reprint, but might also be

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Mark

[Grahame Myers]

Interesting article, thanks for posting the link! I think it's plausible that it's all a myth, hardly any of the old Strads and other violins from this era are in anything like original condition. I think it has more to do with the fact that they're usually in the hands of the most talented players, and they can usually make a garage sale violin sound better than a beginner playing a Strad.

You can observe the same urban legend effect with guitars: Old Martins sound better than the new ones, '59 Les Pauls are the best ones ever made, a glued-on neck sounds better than a bolted-on neck etc, etc...Is an old Les Paul worth a million dollars? I think not. Could you tell the difference between it and a $400 Epiphone fitted with the same pickups, blindfolded? I think not. Do the old ones sound better because of the bumblebee caps, and vinage wire? Of course not, but people still buy them and swear they can hear the difference :-)

All the players I know that can "hear the grass grow" hear with their eyes, and not with their ears. If you blindfold them, they can't hear any difference at all. But a whole industry lives from propogating the legend, and the people spend a heap of money "upgrading" their modern instruments with bumblebee or orange drop caps, vintage wire and '59 PAF pickups. The main thing is, they think it sounds better, so they're happy, and maybe play better because of it.

With acoustic guitars it's the same old story: Here in Germany old Martins are worshipped as gods. You can buy a Taylor, Breedlove, Collins, Guild, Crafter, Yamaha, Takamine etc etc, but, of course, it doesn't sound as good as a Martin. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Martin, Martins are fine guitars, but not so special that they're unique. It's really amazing sometimes to hear some of the chinese-built instruments, if you close your eyes and listen to the sound, without looking at what name is on the headstock, you'd be amazed how good they sound. It's also true that a lot of junk comes from Asia, but in my opinion, the "plastic" Martins for €600 or more aren't any better really.

As long as people are prepared to pay these silly prices for a myth, the industry is going to enjoy making lots of money. But why not? Hey, it isn't my money they're wasting :-) And if they think it sounds better, and play better because of it, that's nice too!

Just my 2cents

 

Grahame

[William F.Eden]

AMEN..........................

[Ned Knepp]

I read this last night and have thought about it since then. For the most part I agree with Grahame but I have to say that I wondered if the author of the article was a player too. What I noticed was that the emphasis was on listening audiences with a little bit mentioned about players.  I think audiences are generally easier to fool than good players who may be fooled once or twice but will usually be able to tell the difference between instruments with some exposure.  I don't doubt that the cost of these rare violins has been inflated pretty drastically but I see no reason to believe that they are not superior to most of the violins on the market. 

 

I was already aware that these instruments have been repaired and modified extensively over their lives and that we really have no idea what they sounded like when they were new. I can't help but wonder if this process of modification and repair hasn't also been a process of refinement which has improved the instruments as well as kept them functional. In other words; it seems to me that these may easily be better BECAUSE of this process. Consider that they tend to be assigned to the best repairman available and that the value of the instrument pretty much guarantees that they will be handled with care and repaired/modified with the greatest of care and best materials and that cost is not nearly as big an issue as it is with "lesser" instruments.  I  think that it is  almost inevitable that they would improve. 

 

We have discussed just such a process on some guitars on this forum. It's pretty well accepted that most if not all of the Gibson acoustics from the "60 can be improved with a bridge change and more than one person has mentioned graduating the bracing to bring out a "better " sound. Some of us are more interested in originality but some of us don't mind losing originality to make a guitar more playable or better sounding. Just extend that process by a couple of hundred years. 

 

I think, in the end, that the price of these sorts of instruments is radically inflated and I would not be surprised that there are some instruments made today that are probably as good or even, perhaps, better but I also think they have a pretty high intrinsic value and should be considered treasures.  Is a $4,000,000  violin 100 times better than a $40,000 violin? I doubt it but I think that it is probably that they are worth more to the people that play them even if it is not so much more.

 

Ned

[Dave Yelverton]

 A few points. The sound of an instrument is a complex issue in which suggestibility plays a key role both to the listener and the player. The listener tends to appreciate a violin costing £5m far more than one costing £3 000 as long as they are made aware of the price!  Similarly for the player; expectation plays a great role and as long as the instrument isn't a total clunker they tend to play to what they believe the instrument should sound like. A violin repair person came up with this story: a violinist went to a repairman on the eve of an important concert. He was in despair as he felt his fiddle wasn't playing "right" and asked the repairman to have a look at it. Repairman takes the fiddle into the back of the shop, sits down and has a cigarette, then five minutes later returns the violin, saying that he had made a minor adjustment to the soundpost. The violinist tries out his newly "adjusted" instrument and cannot sufficiently express his gratitude about the perfection the repairman has achieved!  All perception is both selective and subjective and much of the sound achieved is down to the skill of the player. My old fiddle player used to make my factory produced low-budget fiddle (which he called an orange crate!) sound sublime!

At present there are many highly talented fiddle makers. Despite  the fact that in blind tests they are often found to be superior in tone to the old masters, they are still passed over in preference to the Strads, Amati's etc. However crunch time may be coming; there's some evidence that Strads are wearing out, i.e. past their peak.

As Strads end up immured in collections players are turning to the Guarnieri's. When they wear out, who knows? Some of the modern makers may then take their place among the greats, albeit a few centuries after their deaths!

Taking up the previous point. Violins of the Cremona era greatly differed from their current incarnation. They were made to play at a lower pitch with shorter necks which didn't allow mobility at higher positions. To strengthen the belly against the higher tensions heavier bass bars were introduced. If you play an authentic Baroque violin it's obvious that it's a different instrument and today's concert instruments are largely the product of the modifiers.

Stradivarius was the C F Martin of his time, i.e. a good factory producer with high standards. He and his sons could fill an order from Empress Marie-Therese for 40 fiddles in 3 months so I doubt if there was a great deal of agonising over each instrument!

 

Dave

[Randall Curtis Bowman]

Some additional, fascinating insights and theories:

http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/

[Howard Klepper]

While there are no doubt significant psychoacoustic influences on the popularity of Strads, this article is replete with fallacious reasoning and half truths.  Too many, in fact, to catalog in the minute I'm willing to give to typing here.