All wood banjo

[Dave Yelverton]

Here's a problem upon which I would like to focus the wisdom and experience of members. I had this banjo brought in in pieces a few weeks ago. I've restored it, it's very obviously early 20thC work, but neither I nor the owner have a clue as to it's provenance. Can anyone shed any light?

[Tim Mace]

No wisdom or experience here but has African body influence IMO.I'm channelling.Have you heard it yet?Or ever?What woods involved?Electrify it!

[Paul Breen]

This is a link with some information about Cammeyer.


http://www.whitetreeaz.com/vintage/brit1.htm

[Dave Yelverton]

Tim.. materials: Necks mahog with ebonised f/board. Rim and resonator hoop are beech laminations and the "porthole" resonator ring and resonator bowl are three-ply laminations of mahog. with r/wood veneer. The body is veneered with probably brazilian rosewood in a very faded condition and the whole is french polished. The top is some sort of pine; judging from the unfinished underside, it may be WR cedar but has quite pronounced winter rings. The owner is looking to sell it so I doubt if she would like it electrified. Mainly, she wants to establish its provenance so that she can fix a reasonable reserve price.
I haven't strung it yet as I am unsure as to whether or not it requires wire or nylon. It came with a couple of wire strings on it but that's no guarantee.

Paul, thanks for the link. I have already looked up as many Cammeyer links as I can find, but sadly there is limited information. It has been suggested that this is a hybrid instrument, i.e a Cammeyer Student neck married to another body. The whole instrument is a puzzle and I'm running out of contacts to try!

[Ned Knepp]

Dave, I haven't seen one like this before but I've worked on a very cheaply made banjo like instrument that used a wooden sound ring with a thin sheet of spruce for the face. It was also fitted with nylon strings. The neck was pretty simple, basically an un-reinforced, fretted stick that was held to the ring with two lag screws BUT it actually sounded much better than I thought it would. More like a uke than a banjo

I'm willing to bet your instrument sounds pretty good... in an almost but now quite completely unlike banjo in every way, fashion. It looks much more "professional" than the one I worked on. If it were mine, I think I would try some very light gauge steel strings and watch the instrument closely. You didn't say if the neck runs through the ring or not but I wonder how effective nylon strings could be given the low angle over the bridge you seem to have. A problem with the nylon strings on the one I saw is that the scale is so long that the strings are slinky. I actually told the kid that owns it that I'd probably cut the neck down a bit. Experiments with a capo revealed that the instrument would actually sound better AND be easier to play. Nylon strings just stretch too much for such a long scale and, in my case, steel isn't an option.

It would be fun to Ebay a tenor banjo neck and play around with something like this a bit. Recessing the face plate into the ring might allow a better break angle and... well, it could be fun.

Ned

[Frank Ford]

The Paramount "Tenor Harp" of the 1920s:

[Dave Yelverton]

Thanks, Frank.
The construction is very similar to the banjo I have; I'm wondering if it could have been built as an experimental response to the instrument shown. Cammeyer was American by birth and although he spent his working life in London, I am sure he was aware of developments in the US. The ring joining the rim to the resonator is of flimsier construction, three layers of 0.6mm mahogany with a facing of 0.4 mm rosewood laminated with hide glue which has degraded ( fascinating job separating and re-gluing the layers without distorting the ring!), but otherwise, I'm struck by the similarities.
This is an issue which has got classical banjo experts over here scratching there heads, so I'm grateful for any light that can be cast.

Regards

Dave Y

[Tim Mace]

Looks like a Brekke bridge on the Paramount!...

[Dave Yelverton]

Ned
Just tried out the banjo after re-stringing with D'Addario lights and I'm very impressed. You're right, the sound is almost, but not quite totally unlike a banjo, but it has a very sweet mellow sound. It gets more of a banjo quality as I play closer to the bridge and it's a lot louder than I imagined it would be. I can see why it hasn't caught on, but it would make a nice accompaniment for singing. Definitely not bluegrass, but clawhammer or frailing style.

Regards

Dave Y

[Ned Knepp]

Dave,
I've been thinking about the one you have there. It would be interesting to make something like it. I'm sure it sounds much better than the one I worked with. I've got a short neck tenor in my collection of instruments but I don't play it much. It's a bit overpowering for the group I play with and, doesn't lend itself too well to the church music we play. I've been trying to shake up our sound a bit and something like this might do it. At least it would be something different.

I'm glad to hear that it sounds Ok. I can see why it wouldn't be good for bluegrass but something like it just might be good for a change up to a guitar sound now and then. BTW, did you use a standard banjo bridge or something heavier.

Ned

[Dave Yelverton]

Ned ,
The only drawback I can see to making a banjo is bending the rim. If you haven't got the facilities to stem and bend then how about making a coopered rim say octagonal or decagonal (or as many -agonals as you like!). Here's a link to a DIY banjo:
http://sites.google.com/site/instrumentmaking/all-woodbanjo

and another showing an all wood 16-agon construction:

http://groovewoodworking.carbonmade.com/projects/2253568#1

Also to give you an idea of the sound, here's a Youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkeCavJqwE8&feature=related.

I used the bridge that came with the banjo, a standard two -footed bridge. I like the sound it produces, but I don't know what result I would get from enlarging the footprint. The ozark definitely has a wider bridge and the Paramount has the whole of the bridge in contact with the soundboard. Probably need to experiment!

Regards

Dave Y

[Ned Knepp]

Thanks Dave. I've got a few ideas about this too.

One is to layup a ring in two or three segments using veneer. Another is to glue up segments( like your links) then cut a ring from that. I thought about using an old tenor banjo and making a spruce top for it. I even toyed with the idea of making a round "guitar" style body but I decided that I just as well make a tenor guitar as do that.

I just don't know enough about the effects of a heavy tone ring under these circumstances. My gut tells me that a lighter ring may respond better to a wooden top. I don 't think a metal ring would respond to a wooden top too well. At this point, I'm thinking that a layup of veneer, built up to around 3/8's of an inch in thickness and about 12 inches in diameter might work Ok. One of the reasons that I like the idea of laying up veneer is that I can start thin and easily increase the thickness if it doesn't appear to be enough mass. I guess I'll have to find time to try it to actually know for sure.

Did you happen to try the banjo without the resonator? The one I worked on didn't have one.

Ned

[Dave Yelverton]

I don't know about using veneer, Ned. Years ago I helped a lad doing a music project, who wanted to make a drum body out of veneer. We found that it took a lot of layers to get enough rigidity in the frame. The banjo I'm working in has a rim constucted of two bent beechwood hoops glued together, total thickness 8mm. That would take about a dozen layers of 0.6mm veneer.
My personal prejudice is towards the coopering solution, it actually has precedents in a number of old wood top banjos. However, if you are a wood turner, I did come across a banjo where the pot was exactly that - a turned bowl with side soundports. That sounds an attractive sort of solution, harking back to the gourds that were originally used in this type of instrument ( apparently classified as "spike lutes"). Of, course you could compromise, by doing cooper work first and then turning the polygonal shape into the round on a lathe faceplate
Unfortunately, I never tried the banjo without the resonator . It does help to focus the sound and make it sound a little more banjo like when I stumble my way through Cripple Creek! (seriously, I'm going to have to learn another tune.) Anyway, here's a link to the salad bowl banjo (can't escape Cripple Creek I'm afraid). The tone's nice, reminds me of the cora which is an instrument I love.

http://www.deepcreekstrings.com/2008/07/making-salad-bowl-banjo-3.htm

Hope you have a lot of fun whatever method you choose.

Dave