Fretting/Leveling

[Lawrence Dell]

Hey Folks

I'm a novice builder, in the process of finishing my 3rd dreadnaught.  I'm basically self taught with the exception of now having viewed hundreds of YouTube videos from talented and generous builders who share their work.

I don't have the means for spraying lacquer, so I'm hand finishing my instruments with varnish (and spending way too much time doing so).  I'd like to install and finish the frets on this guitar before attaching the neck/fretboard to the body, as it would save work later and be less stressful on me and the guitar body.  I'm worried, however, that installing the last 6 frets on the fretboard that extends to the sound hole could potentially bow that part of the board convexly and make attachment more difficult. I'm guessing that clamping would straighten the board, but it seems like a poor way to start on a critical joint.

I'm confident that my slots are sawed true and to proper size as I have yet to have any problems with fret installation.  Can anyone tell me what their experience has been in this regard and whether or not I should be concerned?  Thanks much.

[Andrew]

I personally would prefer to install the frets after installing the neck, as that gives you the opprtunity to level the board and get rid of any irregularities that may crop up during the neck attachment installation. You will have to deal with fretting the tongue after though, so thats your judgement call, but there are a number of ways to do it without risk to the guitar.

If you do choose to install the frets first however, you dont really need to worry too much about the bowing in the tongue caused by the fret compression, unless its excessive. A proper clamping/caul arrangement should resolve this just fine. Do your dry runs and make sure the pressure is applied and spread as needed and you should be fine.

[Lawrence Dell]

Thanks Andrew. I'd never before heard of that portion of the fretboard being referred to as the tongue.  I'm leaning toward installing, and at least filing/beveling the frets first.  I'm not too concerned with leveling after the neck is attached since the guitar body below the tongue isn't in any particular danger.  Thanks again.

[Christopher Parker]

Andy pretty much said what I was going to say - installing the frets after the fretboard has been installed and leveled will yield a more precise fret job. Therefore you'll take off less fret material during the leveling and crowning process. 

Gibson, and some other manufacturers fret their fingerboards before installing, which makes more sense in a factory. If you choose to go that route, you can avoid the issue of bowing the board by either widening the fret slots or narrowing (?) the fret tang. Refret wire (especially Stew Mac's) has kind of a beefy tang, which can back-bow your entire neck if you don't loosen the fit. Widening the slots can be tedious, so it's best to reduce the width of the tang. Stew Mac sells their "Fret Barber", which is IMO kind of expensive for what you'r getting, so I just made my own. Your build may go just fine without having to mess with fitting the frets to the slots, but eventually, you're likely to run into the situation where the frets fit so tight that it causes problems, so I thought it was worth mentioning.. 

[Mark McLean]

Hi Lawrence

I have built 6 guitars so far.  They have all had a bolt-on necks, and I always install frets in the whole fingerboard before attaching the neck.  I have never had a problem of the fingerboard extension (tongue) bowing - so I don't think you will have any trouble if you decide to do it this way.  It is certainly a whole lot easier to sand and finish the body without the neck (and bridge) attached.  Even if you are doing a dovetail joint, rather than bolt-on, you should be able to build the complete neck and body separately - and join them at the end.  The exception is the spanish neck design.  How have you been doing your neck joints so far?  On my last one I switched to a fully bolt-on and bolt-down system as described in the Gore/Gilet books, but I adapted it a bit and used this nifty system sold by Luthier's Cool Tools.  I will be sticking with this method from now on.  I love the simplicity of being able to attach/detach the neck at will, with no glue.  I never get the neck angle exactly right at the first attempt.  Now I can adjust and reset it as many times as necessary. 

cheers

Mark

[Lawrence Dell]

I have to agree with you Mark, in that it will be much easier to finish the body and neck, at least as much as possible, before the neck is attached.  This instrument isn't going into the spray booth where all is made well and easy with a few skillful passes.  Working on the neck and body separately is a tremendous time saver when finishing by hand.   Granted, my experience is limited but I have no reason to believe that the integrity of my neck/fretboard assembly is going to somehow change after the assembly is attached to the body.  At least it didn't with the first 2, using a dovetail.   Why would the shape somehow change?  Humidity?  Mine is controlled.  It seems to me that the most likely time for the assembly to change shape is after the instrument is strung.

And thanks for the info on bolt-on's  I'm giving it serious consideration for my next one.  How do you feel about the tonal quality and sustain?

Thanks Christopher for your input and it is greatly appreciated.

[Mark McLean]

Lawrence

Seriously - the question about the tonal quality and sustain in bolt-on necks versus dovetails has been done at length in multiple forums and the conclusion of just about any objective assessment is that bolt-on does not compromise tone.  About the only people who still believe that it does are the makers whose selling point is tradition (I am thinking of one starting with the letter M, and one G), or players who think their guitar must be great because the name on the headstock begins with one of those letters, and anything different must be inferior.  Have you played a Collings, or Goodall, or Bourgeois, or (of course) Taylor?  Great guitars with bolt-on necks.   And the ability to reset the neck without steaming apart a glue joint is going to be a valuable attribute as the guitar gets older.  I predict that if you switch to using bolt-on for your next one you probably will never look back.

OK - traditionalists - fire at will...........

(but do you have evidence?)

M

[Lawrence Dell]

I somehow missed this.  

You are obviously convinced that bolt-on is the way to fly.  My devotion to tradition is only in regard to craftsmanship.  If it works and has potential advantages, use it.  My instincts tell me that the bond (as one solid piece) between the neck and block are critical in building a fine sounding instrument.  By the same token, I think it's almost impossible to make a perfect dovetail by hand, no matter how perfect it looks.  Just my novice opinion.  Why not try other options?

In truth, I have to rework the neck angle of my first guitar.  My mistake was actually more in the contour of the upper bout than the neck angle.  I need to remove the neck and use a shim under the tongue.  At least it sounds good though.  I can still make it a bolt-on if I choose.  I'll let you know.

Thanks

[Howard Klepper]

FWIW, Lawrence, I like to fret the board before gluing it to the neck, but finish the frets after the neck is on the body.

I don't find that any problems in the plane of the fretboard arise from gluing, but I do think it is important to glue with a caul that rests on the board (slotted to go over the frets), and that bridges the joint.  This will keep any weird shit from happening to the plane of the fretboard.  But it won't guarantee perfection, which is why I level and dress the frets after the neck is on.

I don't consider StewMac wire to be "refret" wire and haven't found that it backbows a board significantly with the .023" LMI slotting blade.  I never felt the need to shave the barbs.  But my favorite wire is Jescar, especially EVO.

[Christopher Parker]

I use the exact same saw, and I have indeed had problems with back bowing. I do fret jobs on vintage Martins quite often, and as you know these necks are not adjustable. So when I plane the board on one of those, I need it to stay pretty much the same once the frets are installed, but I still lose a thousandth or two of relief even after shaving the barbs down or widening the slots, and much more if I don't. I should mention that I like a compression fit, so I don't want the fit to be too sloppy - once I press or hammer them in, I want em to stay down, but IME, too tight of a fit causes significant back bow. 

I find most electric guitar necks and modern acoustic necks to be more prone to this issue because they are more flexible, but it's not as much of a problem because the adjustable rod allows for a greater margin of error in this regard.

[Howard Klepper]

Chris, the OP's question, and my comment, were addressed to new construction; not to refretting.  And I was referring to the circular saw blade sold by LMI.

I have done a lot of refrets, and don't find the problem you do, but I think that would be a whole other discussion.

[Christopher Parker]

I see your point, Howard. However I assumed that since tight fitting fret slots (at least in my experience) will back bow an entire neck, then it would certainly back bow an unattached fingerboard as well, and I assumed that was worth mentioning, especially since that was one of the OP's concerns. The same principles apply whether it's a new instrument or a refret.

[Lawrence Dell]

Thanks Howard.  I've installed the frets and all looks good. I'll level and dress them after attachment to the body. I appreciate your taking the time to respond.