How the heck can I keep from making my fret slots too wide!

[Luke Single]

I am honing my Refret skills and one issue that i continue to see myself having to overcome is getting a perfect sized fret slot. 

STRICTLY SPEAKING REFRETs

I understand there maybe be difficult jobs that don't follow any rules and you have to adapt and overcome. I need advice on a standard job. 

The most direct question I have is how do you clean the slot out without making it too wide? I repeatedly make the slots slightly too wide and the fret end will not seat well without making the fret tang wider with fret expanders. Its not that I make it ridiculously wide its just say .023 instead of .020. It is only sometimes not all the time. If it is .020 the fret seats perfectly if its its .023 its loose, at least on the ends. At least that is what I think the problem is. 

I know some of the tricks to overcome loose slots such as refilling them with dust and glue, using fret tang expanders, hitting the fret side ways, gluing them in. Usually I just need to glue them down or crimp the fret. 

Is this issue status quo and you guys just use one of the above methods to address it?

To clean the slots I use .020 fret saw from SM the one that has two little blade on either end, one that is push and one that is pull. I use the standard SM claw hook thing to remove dust, I take my time and move slowly being sure not to rock the saw. I just feel like a .020 without making it .003 wider sometimes is just impossible. its too small of a variance. 

I have tried using the .015 saw but that isn't wide enough!

What am I doing wrong?!  

Bonus question when snipping the ends with flat face end nippers SOMETIMES the fret gets pushed up a little and has to be pushed back down, is that normal?

The tools I use are

Hammer

fret claw press

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Frettin...

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Frettin...

3 corner file for beveling the slot

[Greg Mirken]

I have one of those SM fret saws but I rarely use it. It's kind of crude. For an unbound board I use a Japanese Shark dovetail pullsaw. The teeth have a very tiny set and measure just under .020. For bound boards I have some dental tools I reground into tiny hooked scrapers. Whether those or the StewMac hook tool, stone the end to make sure the tool is sharp.

[Luke Single]

Thanks Greg. I have done some more thinking and looking. Some of the conclusions I came to fall in line with your advice. Maybe I should try a different saw and hone my pick tool a little more fine. Thanks a million for the advice and personal tools that you use. That helps a lot.

[David Farmer]

Are you sure the slot was .020" to begin with?

It' hard to make a slot .003" wider when you want to. a saw tends to wedge in the slot.

What wire are you using? There is wire that will work fine in a .023" slot. 

Can you give more information about the instrument? What was the tang size of the old wire? Was the t-rod working hard?

Are you cleaning out old glue?

[Luke Single]

The current one I am fretting is an old Harmony Brazilian rosewood fret board. Previous boards that I have fretted are a silvertone, a Kay, Mexican strat. Truss rod is not over tightened. It's not an issue with just this guitar it is the same problem I run into when I fret any of those guitars. The current fret wire I am using is SM 155. I don't remember the exact size of the fret tang on the old wire. I still have it I will measure it and get back to you. The slots seem to fit a .02 before I start cleaning it and some of them, maybe 50/50 still fit the new frets well but not all of them.

Maybe I just need to take more care when cleaning them?

I know they make different tang sizes which is important to use when compression fretting, refreting a collectors guitar, by customers choice. When a player wants new frets they are concerned about crown not the tang. I don't know if any place that stocks a different tang for every fret crown. I would certainly use a different size fret tang when needed. I just thought from my learning that the average fret job on a players guitar does not need a special fret tang except on the occasions that the fret slot is messed up. Is my line of thinking correct?

[David Farmer]

Unfortunately it's not that simple.

CA and epoxy glues can make many slot/ tang/ barb combinations work, Barbs can be mashed or shaved down, but in general, the tang and barbs must fit the situation.

Crown widths and heights may or may not be available with a tang/barb that works.  That's why most of us who re-fret regularly have a wide range of different wire hanging on the wall. Take a look at Jescar's wire specification chart to get an idea of one manufacturers options within a certain crown range. I find Jescars published dimensions fairly accurate but published numbers from many sources are frequently incorrect. 

Measuring the old wire and noting how well it was staying down and keeping the neck straight is an important clue about what size, within your options, would work best.

If you don't have a selection of wire on hand, pulling a fret in an unused area and measuring it will let you order what you need ahead of time.

If you are really widening the slots inadvertently I would switch to a tool that only scrapes the bottom of the slot as Greg mentioned. Saws can have set that abrades the slot sides. Just because Stew mac says the saw is .020", it's not necessarily so. Is that what it measures at the outside of the set?

Compression fretting with different tang sizes is used to control relief on necks with no truss rod but most necks require tangs to mate with slots in a way that keeps the truss rod within it's functional range.

[Luke Single]

ok gotchya thanks David. Ill take a better look at jescar fret wire and reevaluate the old frets and maybe make or buy one of those fret debarbing tools to control the fret barbs and tangs if i can't get fret wire that will fit like I want it to.

I think I get discouraged because when I read about the average fret job for the most part it seems like "Hey you just clean the slot out, pick your favorite wire, tap it in there, glue it if you want, BOOM fret job complete."
Now I am exaggerating, I guess I am just trying to emphasize that I am trying to do a professional job and I don't want to be making more work for myself or modifying the fret or fret slots because I can't properly prepare the board for a fret job.

Is it a common occurrence that you guys use a fret tang debarber or expanders on most jobs at least on some of the frets? or are those tools used for specifically difficult situations that do not get used much?

 

[Lee Gendvilas]

Hi David, given that you have measured the old wire, what do you look for with how the new wire should fit to the slot - i.e. how wide should the barb and/or tang be in relation to the slot?

[David Farmer]

Yeah, that's the crux Lee.

I remember years ago reading some rule of thumb formula in one of Dan Erlewines books and never making sense of it. It used to drive me nuts when I would hear,"you just develop a feel for it". Unfortunately that's kind of how it is. That said, I'll offer a  way to think of it.

You know for sure the tang it's self is not going to push into the end grain. No matter how soft. So as soon as the tang approaches the slot width it will immediately start wedging the neck back. That may be desirable or not. The barbs, on the other hand, will cut into the slot wall to some extent. largish barbs, say .036" on a .020" tang, will add considerably to the wedging action on Ebony but not so much on softer wood.

If the old wire was staying down and the t-rod was not working hard, I would use any wire with the same tang size or larger but not smaller and I always wick thin CA glue in after they are set.

There are just so many variables it's hard to come up with rules. I think the best way to make up for inexperience is to slow down and pay close attention to what is happening. Maybe string it up after some frets are in to see what effect they are having. Just make sure you know the tang and barb dimensions of what you took out and put in or you will not learn from success or failure.

Luke, I much prefer making things right with wire selection and barb shaving if necessary  . Altering slots is a PIA.

I have some old (15+ yrs)Stew mac #155 that measures just under a .020"tang with .030" barbs. I can see it being loose if it's in a .023"Rosewood slot.

Stringed instruments are made of many small flimsy parts that have to be assembled to very tight tolerances in order to work well. This is especially true of fret work. I can think of nothing about guitar repair that is "boom and complete" it's just finicky stuff.  

[Luke Single]

Thanks Lee for contributing. 

That helps a lot David.I will look at Jescar more closely and pick up some different fret wire. I'll Take this advice and keep on keeping on. It seems like it is a matter of patience and practice. Being careful and figuring out what works.  

[Lee Gendvilas]

Happy Holidays David and Luke! Thank-you David for your reply and thank-you Luke for starting the discussion. I have two gigs to do and will post some comments hopefully later today when I have more time than now.

[Thomas James]

Search "Dremel routing fret slots" on this forum read complete thread, especially Mark Kane's comments, video, and links. His dremel method has changed my fret slot preparation work to a much smoother operation.

[Luke Single]

Thanks Thomas I'll check that out. Thanks for the replies everyone