Little guitars

[David Houchens]

I just finished my first small (single 0) guitar. I was blown away by the tone and volume of this little guitar. I will be building more of these. Its Adirondack/Brazilian.

[David Houchens]

Ned, I couldn't find plans for a single O, but I had a template for single O top/back size and plans for a palor size and a set for a Martin 1-18. I kind of just used a mix. I braced it for Thomastic style strings, fairly light. It blew me away with reagular lights, but I recomended xtra lights or Thomastics.

[Ned Knepp]

David,
I've been looking around for plan in this general size range and I don't recall finding anything for "0" size Martin clones either.

I assume it's X braced. If you don't mind giving us details, did you scallop the bracing? Did you use one or two tone bars across the belly? Figuring out the bracing is where I go blank when I think about building one without plans.

Ned

[David Houchens]

Ned, I did scallop the X brace and the one tone bar. I put one small brace off each side of the X as well. Very light back bracing. Tall and thin. I think I have pictures of that stage. I'll check and see if I can pull them up.

[Ned Knepp]

Thanks, David. I feel fairly confident about figuring out the back braces but I get concerned when thinking about bracing the top. If you can find some pictures, I would appreciate seeing them. My biggest concern is that I will over brace.

Ned

[David Payne]

I just finished a full restoration of a 1925 0-18K. It was left in the attic of a house in Phoenix and was a total meltdown with the plates cracked and warped. I am surprised it came back to life. It sounded great and as the wood returns to it's shape and stress loads it just gets better. I was surprised by the tone for a small body guitar as well.

Here are some pictures of the bracing. In 1925 (approx. ) they started bracing for steel but mine can only handle light strings. The bracing is scalloped and fairly light. The bridge plate was only 1/32" and needed to be replaced. I used thicker stock 1/4 sawn hard maple.

One of these days when I can work it in I am going to document the outline, scale length, bracing etc. A couple of years ago I published a full on set of 1929 00 plans but LMI never went through with the deal.

Dave

[David Payne]

P.S.:

If anyone is interested in the 1929 00 plans, I would be willing to share. They are full size and all you have to do is send the file to a Kinko's and ask for exactly 100% print size.

Dave

[Ned Knepp]

Hi Dave, Thanks for the pictures of your restoration.

I noticed that your "0" has two tone bars across the lower bout. If I remember correctly the size 1 only has one. Do you think there is enough difference in size that two may be required? Not that expect you and David to duke it out over a tone bar. It's just that it's stuff like this that I'm not so sure about.

BTW, I would be interested in you "00" plans. As far as I'm concerned, there no such thing as too much information.

Ned

[David Payne]

Ned,

The original braces needed to be replaced because of the flatness problems and they were a soft cedar. I think I braced it a little stiffer but only because it seemed necessary.
However, the glue lines were quite visible and it definitely had two tone bars. One may work fine for a new guitar build but I would be a little concerned about excessive bellying (who knows though). In some ways I think Martin was trying to figure out how to brace for steel around 1925. It is pretty obvious to me that they weren't sure yet. A good example is a bridge plate that is 1/32" thick.

I think it is typical to see some bellying (lifting) of the top in front of the bridge over time and my 0-18K is no exception even with 2 braces in that area. Now that it is returning to it's original shape and is stable now I realize there is no such thing as a true flat top guitar......(meant to be humor).

I am new to the forum but I think I either need an email address or be connected as "friends" to send or receive data.

Maybe I will try to just attach it to this thread.

Dave

[David Houchens]

Dave,I brace mine in a 25 ft radius form so it starts life with a belly(not as big as mine though). I went with the one tone bar from the 1-18 plans. It is positioned as the forward one in your picture. I'm assuming the back tonebar lends more to tone color than actual support. I told the owner to use the Thomastic Plectrum 111 set. I hope they do. Its definately braced very light. Although the adirondack with the hard lines is very stiff. Time will tell. Also thanks for the 00 sheet.

[David Payne]

David,

Just out of curiosity, isn't the 2, 1, 0 and 00 originally flat top with a slight arch in the back? Not that you couldn't dome the top cause it certainly strengthens it and helps with neck angle/bridge height issues.

Of course a 25 ft. radius isn't very noticeable and as soon as a flat top bellys a little it ain't flat anyway.

I am happy you got the 00 print, it doesn't do much good sitting in my computer....might as well get used.

One note: in the late 20's 00 guitars sometimes had a "belly" bridge and other times had a "pyramid". The pyramid is harder to make and not as strong. Ref: http://www.om28.com/svinguit/290021.html

Dave

[Ned Knepp]

Thanks, Both of you (David and Dave) for the information.

One of my questions when thinking about building something smaller is how to gauge the relative stiffness/ strength of the bracing vs. the top plate. It seems logical to me that the smaller size of the top plate means that it can become too stiff when braced more easily than a larger top plate would. (If that makes any sense. ) One of my basic assumptions has been that I will build with a slight arch to the top but this adds a layer of complexity to determining when enough bracing is enough. I might be over analyzing this, as my wife so often points out, it is one of my (many) failings.

David's comments about belly bridge and pyramid bridges makes me wonder if the difference in mass makes much difference in response and volume on small sound boards. I've sort of always assumed that smaller faced guitars usually have straight bridges for this reason. Most of the smaller bodied Gibson also use a straight bridge rather than belly bridges ( excepting the plastic abominations of the '60s) . Of course I realize that this could be as much a case of tradition or taste as any thing.

Thank you for the 00 plans, David. I'm astounded at the attention to detail you included in them. They may be the nicest, most complete plans I've ever seen. I"m a sucker for slotted head / 12th fret guitars. I own a Martin DV-18 with this combination and love it. The short neck and, in my case, scale do make things a bit cramped at times but it also feels different than my other, 14th fret, guitars. I'm willing to live with a bit of crowding, besides, that's one of the reasons to own more than one guitar.

I really do appreciate what you two are saying. Together, you have cleared up some of what confuses me most. Most of what I have done is repair work. The little real building I've done is with carved arch top instruments. In a lot of ways, to me, these seems much more straight forward than building flat top instruments.

David, I just want to point out that posting your plans, as you have done, opens them up to anyone on the Internet. I'm very glad to have a copy of them and I'm already considering how soon I can get to Kinko's but I don't know if you are aware that you have, for all intents and purposes, just given your hard work away to the world for free. Sooner or later (probably sooner ) a Google crawler will index the site and your plans will be cached and thus easier to relocate in the future. Just an FYI.

Thanks again,
Ned

[David Payne]

Ned,

I think you are probably right about smaller body guitars benefiting from a smaller bridge. However, I don't think on a 00 size it may make much difference. I have had a pyramid bridge and one small straight martin bridge break out at the saddle before but I think if you pick a really straight grained quality blank it is not so likely to be a problem.

Also, in regards to your comments about bracing, when building any acoustic consider the plate thickness as well as the bracing. Every set of plates is different. I get fussy about getting good bracing material and splitting it with an axe to make sure it is as close to 1/4 sawn as possible so they can be as strong without being to massive. It is hard to know how light to build until you make one that really warps or fails in some way. I made a 3/4 size 00 for my grandson and it has a very curvy top from the extra stresses and light construction. It still plays fine though. My teacher has always said the luthier with the most guts (to build as light as possible, yet strong enough to last) will make the best sounding instrument. In a lot of ways I still feel like a beginner though. These forums are great and I should have joined sooner.

I have gone to a local show for several years and I consistently see newer builders making everything too heavy. I was lucky and had a master teacher for around 5 years and so I just had to learn to listen to him.

My favorite acoustic guitar is the 00. If it is made correctly it can sound almost as big as a dread. Since I play mostly classical I like the wider fingerboard (plus I have big hands). I can't play a 1-5/8" wide neck. The 00 was originally 1-7/8".

I don't mind giving away the 00 plans because they were just sitting around on my computer benefiting nobody and I already appreciate this community as I have learned a lot from some questions I posted and reading the older posts. Also, Frank picked up the phone one day at Gryphon and answered some questions I had without hesitation. I was amazed that such a busy guy cared enough to spend the time.

Oh, just remember, the plans were made with research done over a period of time and there were originally several errors. Don't assume they are perfect. There are also compromises such as showing a truss rod and angled saddle compensation when the original didn't have these features. I don't think I rendered the bridge quite right either...there is a subtle rounding of the inside face of each pyramid for example (just one of the 4 faces).

Thanks,

Dave