Armstrong handmade PAF vs. Seymour Duncan PAF.

[LARRY KLOSE]

I recently acquired a Steve Andersen Vanguard Archtop (No. 366--2003).  An earlier owner installed a Seymour Duncan Humbucker w/gold cover in place of the  original Armstrong hand made PAF.  I suspect that the Armstrong was harvested for something else by a dealer in the chain of ownership.

I Couldn't find a model indication on the SD.  Would restoring the guitar to original spec with another Armstrong hand made PAF improve the amplified sound over the SD?  Any opinions on the differences? 

The guitar is new to me so I haven't had time to explore the existing setup much, yet. 

There's a lot of soft foam stuffed in under the SD.  Is this a common/necessary thing for a top mount pickup on an archtop?  The guitar has a spruce top and has a pretty good acoustic sound.  Should I remove the foam?

Any comments would be appreciated.

 Thanks,

 

Larry Klose

[Paul Verticchio]

Hello Larry.

S Duncan makes about 18 different humbuckers from low output vintage PAF style to high gain heavy metal pickups. Also, he uses Alnico II & V and ceramic magnets and that's another variable.  All construction details yield different sounds.

Armstrong vs. Duncan: My personal opinion is that Duncan makes some of the most consistent sounding HQ pups on the market.  Armstrong's (even his best handmades) are considered mid grade pups. I (personal opinion) find them too dark & dull for ME. YMMV.  If it helps you out, Duncan builds for Bob Benedetto's hand built archtops.

OK, that's the academic/opinion part.

Choosing a pickup is THE most daunting decision a player has to make. 

Every pup sounds and responds differently in each guitar and with each amp. 

Manufacturer's 'descriptions' regarding their signature sound is simply a guideline.

The ONLY way to find the right pickup is to make an educated guess as to what's missing or in overabundance in the existing pickups response and choose one that addresses those desires.

The bottom line: searching for the perfect pickup is a long and relatively expensive process.  Don't be surprised if you go through 5 or 6 pups before finding the holy grail. The "PERFECT PICKUP" will be the one that sounds best to YOU alone, regardless of price or brand. Keep an open mind.

Hint: if you want super high quality in build & sound, try a Lollar Imperial Low Wind. It's worth every penny of its $150 price. A close 2nd at half the price is a Duncan Jazz (neck). 

Duncan's, Lollar's & DiMarzio's sites have a plethora of information on pups, the materials used to make them and how those materials affect their performance.  It's a science and craft unto itself.  Much study & reading is recommended.

re: the foam.  Without pic's, I can't visualize the issue.

Hope some of this helps. 

[Russell Vance]

Thumbs up for the advice offered by PV, 

We have boxes full of pickups that we use to hit the sweet spot, mostly Bareknuckles these days as we are OEM with them but have done most everything else from time to time.   The only thing that I really know for sure with pickups is that you get what you pay for (and this is not so true in many other areas) and that there are only a hand-full of major winders that actually deliver the goods consistently.   Lollar is one of these guys, as is Fralin and Joe Barden (I really rate his Tele pickups - an absolute joy to behold), along with BKP who have high-output humbucker tone just nailed.

But, his is not to promote a product, SD are great value pickups and we use some Dimarzios as well, but the overall thing here is that some pickups are just so much better than the average run of the mill sausage factory stuff which are often harmless enough but are one dimensional and lack pick response/dynamics and the ability to wind back a bit.   Which is stuff  you should pay extra for.

For an extra 50 bucks I'd go with the Lollar Imperial or something exciting like a BKP Manhatten - this stuff will get you interested.

However, everyone's got their faves, and no doubt we'll be hearing a bit about them.

As for the foam under the pickup: this is put there to prevent the humbucker from tilting in the mounting ring (due to the pup lead in tension or the wrong mounting ring config) and altering the distance of the two rows of poles and slugs from the strings (which I like to see them equidistant) - it can also be used to stop the pup rattling around in some of the floppier mounting rings/loose screws.   Sonically it doesn't do much, if anything.

Regards,

Rusty.

[LARRY KLOSE]

Good info from Paul and Rusty, what I was looking for.  To add info, this is a spruce top archtop with good acoustic sound (I'll probably be using it that way from time to time) but I also want to play amplified jazz with it.  Are the pickups you mention (especially the Lollar) considered good jazz pickups?  So the goal may be less aggressive than PUP's that work well with solid body guitars.  I've got time to figure it out.  

Re the foam, the PUP appears to have enough lead attached and the ring is conformed to the top so the top of the PUP is parallel to the strings.  It's a single row humbucker with the pole screws closest to the neck.  I was just wondering if the foam would damp the acoustic sound in any way.  

I'll be pulling and examining the SD to see which model I have the next time I re-string.  There's a logo stamped on the bottom of the SD but I didn't see a model name or number--where would I find that?

Thanks,

Larry

[Paul Verticchio]

Hiya Larry.

Glad you found the info helpful. 

Yes, the Lollar Imperial Low Wind is, in many player's opinion, "THE" premier pup for jazzers.

The foam: no affect whatsoever on the pup. I do the same thing with my guitars when needed. A pickup is an electro- magnetic device. Foam is not magnetic so........

Visit SD's website. They have an article on ID'ing their pups. Ex: An SH-1 is their "59' PAF".  An SH-2 is their "Jazz" pup. An SH-55 is the "Seth Lover PAF".  They've used different ID methods over the years (stickers, hand written, etc.).

I'd also like to point out that the quality of your amp, and the type of speaker it uses, has a tremendous influence in auditioning pickups.  An inexpensive solid state 'practice amp' with anything less than a 10" speaker will mask the differences between pickups. Also, a 'toneless' speaker will add frustration to the process too, regardless of the amp's quality. If it's a tube amp, the quality of the tubes also have a significant influence.

The easiest "hunting trips" I've undertaken over the decades have been the one's where I've have a "sound goal" in my head. Y'know... something to chase.  Set your sonic goal and pursue it using a systemic* approach and your journey will be enjoyable. :)

Happy hunting,

P:)

*your guitar, strings, pup, cable amp & speaker are a 'system'.

[LARRY KLOSE]

Is there any effect from the foam on the acoustic sound--damping, muffling, etc?

I'm currently testing through a Hartke acoustic amp--maybe not ideal for mag pickup evaluation?  My friend has a Fender twin reverb tube amp.  I'm pretty sure it's vintage--he uses it with his '58 Strat.  Would that be a better test?

I'll be sure to keep my power drill away from the PUP's in any case.<G>

Larry

[Russell Vance]

Hi Larry,

If you have any concern either real or perceived about the foam just remove it - however, it makes absolutely no difference in this application.  

It may make some difference in high sound pressure level environments when it has a fully cranked quad box pointing at it (the foam changes the physical vibration mode of the pickup) but in the typical Jazz environment its benign.

What PV said about amps and the overall "system" is the best advice.  Find a tone you like from a recording and go about replicating it.   Learning how amps respond and sound is a huge part of getting your amplified tone good.  But, a lot of amps are very capable of delivering good jazz tones you just have to learn how to relate the guitar to the amp and EQ them together.

The bottom line here is that good electric/amplified tone is much more difficult to nail than acoustic tone which is a function of the box and how you play it - chasing tone in the electric environment gets expensive and time consuming - fast. 

The best way (one of them at least) to do it at the beginning is to find a proven combination of guitar, pickups, and amps and start from there.    A Fender twin set up for jazz (doesn't mean much whether its old or new in this case - vintage twins are just old twins - they will sound much the same in this Jazz application) has proven itself over time and has good headroom and a linear response for jazz. 

Set your guitar volume at 8-10 and your tone at the position where it starts to sounds sweet with all your amp EQ knobs at 12 o'clock, set low gain on the clean channel with the amp volume doing the work.  A touch of reverb to open up the sound a bit and then go through the individual EQ controls - all the way up and all the way down, and then in combination to get acquainted with their effects on that guitar and amp combination.  

Good luck and have some fun.   If you get stuck on the SD pup type, run a accurate ohm meter over it and check the DC resistance against the published figures on the SD website - it won't positively identify the pup but it will get you in the "genus" ballpark.  

Enjoy.

Rusty.

[LARRY KLOSE]

Thanks to all for the good advice!  I'll begin my trek to pickup land with a good info base!

Larry

[Paul Verticchio]

Good hunting, Larry.

Any questions along the way?   Feel free to ask. :)