Intonation/setup.

[Brian T. Williams]

Hi,

No real issue here, just interested in you experts' thoughts.

I have been doing a setup on my Gibson 335 12string, following the fitting of a new nut, and using the Gibson setup specs as a starting point. Everything is fine and the guitar plays like a dream but I have a question about setting intonation..........is it better to use a tuner or your ears ???

I have been using a TC electronics "Polytune" to set the intonation and whist this gets pretty damn close, I believe I can get a better, almost perfect result using my ears.

I realise that you luthiers must have much better professional electronic tuners that hold the calibration  much more steadily and accurately but I just wondered what your opinions are.....TUNERS or EARS ??

Cheers.......Brian

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Brian.

Those are great 12 strings...and rare too (if it's a 60's era model).

This has come up before and I always chime in as an advocate of ears over tuners. I'll use a tuner to tune the string itself, but then use my ears to do the octave intonation. The one thing that the tuner cannot anticipate is the player's finger pressure on the string during actual play. I choose practical application over academics.

Also, if you replace the 6 saddle ABR bridge with a Gotoh ABR style 12 saddle bridge, all the octave strings can be intonated as well. It will make the guitar sound like a choir of angels.

I guess what I mean is, whatever method works the best for you is the best method for you to employ.

Best of luck (and now I have guitar envy!),

Paul:)

[Hesh Breakstone]

Both!  Hi Brian - hope you are doing well!

I use both my ears and a strobe tuner.  It's been said that we limited humans.... can't hear differences beyond around 4 cents but four cents is too broad a range for setting intonation in my view.  So I use my ears and a strobe tuner.

If you have an IPhone Peterson who pretty much is the industry standard for their expensive bench tuners also has an IPhone app available for about only $10 IIRC.  I use this app and love it.  When I first downloaded it we checked it against a big-arse Peterson strobe tuner and it was spot-on.  Nice thing about this app too is that my phone is always with me so now too is a quality tuner.

Intonation setting has some variables such as how firmly one frets, etc.  So perfect is elusive but very, very close should be obtainable.  This is basically a +1 to what our friend Paul wrote.

Anyway you might want to check out the Peterson "Strobosoft" app if you have an IPhone - great stuff!

A Gibby 335 12 sounds very cool - I can hear Hotel California going though my head now....;)

[Brian T. Williams]

Thanks Paul & thanks Hesh for your responses; also, thanks to anyone else who may want to add a comment!

That seems to endorse my thoughts that ears are better for fine tuning intonation.

My 335/12 was a choice made owing to the ease of playing after sustaining an acute injury to my left wrist, making playing my acoustic 12 string (that I've played for 30 years) painful and uncomfortable!

It's a 2013 Memphis model; maybe doesn't have the kudos of a vintage instrument but it is absolutely superb.

I've looked at the Peterson strobe app Hesh, do you think it's THAT much better than the TC Polytune??

[Jeff Highland]

Setting intonation is a judgement call due to the effects of fretting pressure, picking strength, variation with time etc.

Ears are good for comparison, but I want my octave to be the octave of the open string not just the same as the stopped harmonic so I use a tuner.

[Ned Knepp]

Jeff, would you mind explaining to me what your process is without using the harmonic. I realize that this may be clear to everyone else but since I don't use a tuner, I'm not clear on how you do this. 

[Ned Knepp]

I like ears but then I don't use a tuner at all. I will point out that if you're going to use your ear, you better have a good one or someone with a better ear will call you on it.

 I recently saw a video on YT in which James Taylor explained how they tune his guitars so that it sounds right to him as he moves between open and capoed. In short each string is tuned a few cents flat with some adjustment for gauge. He says that the idea is to compensate for the stretch that placing a capo causes in addition to holding some of the strings with fingers. That makes a lot of sense to me but I haven't tried it because I don't have a tuner that is accurate enough to indicate such fine adjustments. That might be enough to get me to using a tuner. 

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Ned.

Before THIS post goes off topic;  we're talking about setting octaves, NOT general tuning.

I've been doing, as have a million other guys, what JT does, for the last 40 years. All it takes is a lot of familiarity with the particular instrument. It's not the Secrets of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

All of my guitars have individual "tuning personalities". All guitars do. It's the nature of the instrument.

:)

[Ned Knepp]

Sorry Paul, I wasn't really going off topic so much as I didn't explain myself very well. I also compensate my strings once they are "tuned" but I've never heard it defined in exact numbers before I saw this video.

The real point that I should have made with the JT tuning technique is that I think intonation ultimately is in the player's ear, not the builder or the repair tech's.  As you pointed out, everyone with an ear tweaks their guitar in something like JT's manner.  A guitars that may be perfectly intoned for a first position player probably won't be so neatly intoned for someone using a capo. Under these circumstances I can't see how a tuner is necessary if the setup person has a reasonably good ear.  I'm not really knocking using a tuner but I don't see how it can be better than a good ear. The player will probably mess with the intonation by tweaking it anyway which pretty much takes the perfect pitch intonation that a technician worked to get out of his hands and gives it to the player.

I know this isn't the kind of intonation the topic is talking about but I when I put a capo on a guitar, it always plays slightly sharp from the open position tuning and the increase isn't constant across the strings unless I've tweaked the tuning.  I've had guitars that has to be completely tuned again when a capo was used. (OK, they weren't great guitars but still they illustrate the point. )  

Obviously the intonation should be as very close but I'm unconvinced that a tuner is any better than a decent ear.

[Roger Dowsing]

Hi Ned, it's me again but on this topic.

I have experimented with different capos and tweaked individual capos to solve the problem of the tuning going out when using one.

Please excuse me if I am stating the obvious here but it helps me to explain my findings.

Guitar fretboards are radiussed and guitar capos are also radiussed. These radii vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model

Often they do not match.

String gauges can vary from ultra light to heavy and as the capo pulls the strings down to the fretboard it stretches them causing them to go out of tune. This out of tune might be different for each string and different for different string gauges. We have such a set of variables that one capo is never going to right for all.

The guitar neck gets thicker higher up and this  can affect the clamping force or depression of the string between the frets.

I hate to mention my guitar again but here goes - on my Gibson MK72 I use Schubb capos and have taken the rubber sleeve off, gently reshaped the "finger" and then replaced the rubber sleeve.

I always use the same gauge of string on that instrument - Elixir 80/20 bronze 0.012 - 0.053

I can now use that capo up to the 7th fret and the tuning is nigh on perfect.

I have a lower middle range Fender acoustic and I have a specially modified Schubb for that - it is different from the one I use for the Gibson but works well.

It is also worth mentioning that as the Schubb is an adjustable screw clamp type, it is important to screw it down just right as, the further up the neck I place it, the thicker is the neck.

I hope this is some help.

Roger

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Roger.

Shubb makes different radi capos for different styles of stringed instruments. I use separate capos for each of my instruments (there's at least one in each case). As far as adjusting the tension of the Shubb for each position: yes, that's vital. 

Old timers' trick: I buy their 12 string capos for my 6 strings as they do a better job as you use them higher on the neck. I also custom radius their capos exactly as you do for instruments with an unusually radical radius (like Fender's 'vintage' 7.5" radius).

May I suggest you try the G7th Capo. It's not a panacea but it covers a lot of ground. It's the easiest capo to reposition and negatively affects tuning less than any other capo I've used. When used for live performances, it can't be beat. You don't 'clamp' it as much as you squeeze it onto the FB.

Once you get past the $40 price tag, you'll be glad you have it.

I admit that I too, regrettably, have gotten WAY off topic of the original post to reply to your comments. What say someone start a new thread if we wish to discuss capos?. I have nothing more to add regarding them.

Cheers :)

[Kerry Krishna]

 I do the exact same thing as Paul...

[Steven D. Wilson]

This may go without saying, but I was taught to always set the intonation with the instrument in playing position as opposed to laying flat on the bench. It does seem to make a difference.