Re-gluing trapazoid fret markers?

[Gerry Hemming]

I just acquired a neglected '50 ES 150 with large pearoid markers that are all coming up aound the edges. What'a the best way to flatten and reglue them so they're flush with the board?

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Gerry.

If the markers are curling, they're probably made out of plastic. This also means that they've shrunk. In the 50's, Gibson used a vinyl material identical to drum shell covering to make some of its FB blocks & inlays.

Standard protocol in our shop calls for the replacement of the markers.  Most standard shapes & patterns are available from several on-line suppliers in MOP.

If the guitar is getting a refret, it'll be an easy job to install & level the new blocks.  If a refret is not in order, get ready for a lot of scraping to level the new blocks.  It's not difficult, just time consuming the latter way.

Best of luck(:

Paul

[Eric Steven Johansen]

I agree with Paul that replacing the markers is the best and most permanent repair but if your customer is more concerned with keeping it original another method I've had success with is scraping the edges flush (save the dust) and filling around the edge with a mixture of epoxy and the marker dust. You will see this repair, albeit minimally, but if you force in the epoxy you will save those original markers.

[Paul Breen]

This is a 54 J160E with the inlay ends on most of them starting to lift on the corners. I used a caul from a Stew Mac fret press set at the correct radius to hold them down and then wick Super in near by, you don't want to glue the caul down. Worked great.

[Paul Verticchio]

Eric,

Great suggestion/procedure.  I agree about the originality part.  Since the OP didn't mention that as criteria, I suggested the replacement.

Also, given his term "neglected '50 ES 150", I presume they're in bad shape.  A photo would have been extremely helpful to help us determine the severity of the "curl".

The only reservation I have about using the original markers in situ is: to assure a long lasting repair, the markers should be removed and all the old adhesive removed and fresh adhesive used.  Whether or not to use the original markers or replacements is his call.

Thanks Eric & have a good one (-:

[Eric Steven Johansen]

Thanks Paul. I agree pictures would be helpful. Many posters seem to be getting hip to giving us something to look at and it's a real help in assessing all of the pertinent factors that affect what course of action seems appropriate. I once had a friend show me his fathers "neglected" '47 D18 and was stunned to see a filthy but otherwise perfect guitar with it's original strings intact. Words can mislead but pictures never lie.

[Paul Hostetter]

The old MOTS fret blocks that Gibson et al use were celluloid nitrate, not vinyl. Big difference. 

If they're curling up at the edges, the logical thing would be to glue them back down using a water-based glue such as regular Titebond—not an acetone-based glue like Sigment or Duco—and if they've shrunk a bit, fill the margins with an epoxy-based fill to match the board, not the celluloid. The board is probably dark rosewood, an extremely easy color to match with black and sienna paint pigments (not sawdust, which is much too coarse and never matches) mixed into epoxy. Trying to match old toilet celluloid is hopeless. 

In my experience, CA and acetone-based glues exacerbate problems with failing celluloid plastic. You'll get it down, and then see it crystallize and rot in a hurry over the next year, at which point you really do have to start over.

[Eric Steven Johansen]

I've had good luck matching using the dust and usually the space I'm filling is fairly small but I see the benefit of filling to match the board as well. Thanks for bringing up the long term consequences of CA glue. Learned that lesson a while ago the hard way.

[Paul Breen]

In my experience, CA and acetone-based glues exacerbate problems with failing celluloid plastic. You'll get it down, and then see it crystallize and rot in a hurry over the next year, at which point you really do have to start over.

Thanks for the heads up on this Paul.

[Gary Fried]

I had a job similar to this and ended up replacing the inlays. Granted the rest of the guitar was in rough shape but replacing those inlays with some shell really looked great. Stewmac had the gold pearl color and it matched well. Cleaning out those recesses for the inlay was a nightmare though. Took longer than the frets. When the customer picked up the guitar he was ecstatic. I never had much luck gluing those down no matter what method I tried. Most of them seem to rise after some time.   

[Gerry Hemming]

Thank you all for the insights and recommendations. You might see from the pix on this photo site...

http://gibson52es150.shutterfly.com/

...that some of the markers are tight, some look tight but bounce a bit when pressed, some are curling at the corners and a couple look like loose baby teeth ready to go. I think my plan is to wick AC into the pretty tight ones, Titebond the corner-curlers and maybe hide glue the ones I can wiggle out. My fear is that if any go back below the level of the board I'll have a hard time getting them out again if they're ACd, but not too bad it they're hide glued.

Another issue, while I've got your attention, is some water-damage to the finish at the lower bass bout. It's brittle and starting to fleck at the binding (the binding is pretty solid). I've read about ways to pierce the surface and flow lacquer into essentially melt things back together, so what are your thoughts on stabilizing this area. (I'm a fair furniture refinisher, but a newby at guitars, the 150 is mine, and while I do practice on cadavers, the blocks and finish issues are a bit beyond my experience. So, thanks again for your input.)

Gerry