What do you charge for a hole repair?

[John Cartwright]

Hi folks,

I've seen several websites of repairmen who have a list of basic prices for standard repairs like re-frets, new nuts, neck resets, etc.  However, what I don't see are any ball park prices for crack and hole repair in acoustic guitars.  

What do you all charge to repair a sizable (e.g. 1/2" x 1 1/2") hole and associated cracks in the side, top or back of an acoustic guitar including the local re-lacquering, sanding and buffing that would be needed to finish it off right?  The sort of hole that would require adding a piece of wood, shaping it for a perfect custom fit.

If you charge by the hour, what is your rate and approximate completion time for the average repair of this sort? 

Many thanks!  Hope everyone's new year is off to a fine start.  

[John Cartwright]

Anyone? 

I've recently been trying to get better with some moderate spray lacquer work, which I had formally tried to avoid, but this very recent repair called for it after I repaired the hole.  It came out much better than what I had thought, but I had to experiment so I lost track of my hours.  I'm a serious hobbyist working toward professional, and I've no idea what to charge him for this.  Can anyone give me an idea what they would charge for the repair of a hole in an acoustic?  I'd appreciate it.  Thanks! 

-John

[harrison phipps]

It would help to post a photo and tell what brand of guitar

[Russell Vance]

Hi John,

I appreciate your dilemma.   Because of the disparate nature of general guitar repair work  which involves type of instrument, type of damage, type of repair schedule and work, refinishing, restring and set-up we have some difficulty in solving your equation (as witnessed by the lack of replies - nobody can afford to touch this topic).  

Similarly, if you are working out of home you don't need to pay the rent/cost for your retail repair shop, tools and equipment.    Understandably, most hobby/amateur aspirants also charge very little while they learn the basics so it distorts the real cost of what repairs cost.

Charge by the hour for these sorts of jobs.   But, you must also have the correct tools and equipment and experience to make sure that your time is used efficiently and the customer is getting value for money while not paying for inexperience or a lack of appropriate industry standard tools equipment and work practices.

A grab bag of things you may wish to consider:

A professional guitar repairman working 40 hours a week for $40,000 a year is working for about $20 an hour (minimum wage in Oz is around $18 an hour).  Busing tables in the U.S pulls in $7.50 an hour by comparison. 

Plumbers charge $90 an hour here and getting a ding taken out of a new car door is around $800 for a couple of hours work by an apprentice panel beater/panel re-placer and spray guy using set and forget self leveling two-pack .  

These things,and there are plenty of other examples,  provide perspective and an understanding of relative cost structures ( what it cost you to do your business in comparison to the charges that you experience from other service providers in your community). 

Watch the Dan Erlewine videos provided free at Stewmac.com to get an idea of how fast and meticulous a fully worked up technician works in a properly fitted out shop and adjust your rate to meet this basic demonstrated work requirement.   If you are only working at 1/3 the speed of a trained tech, charge 1/3 the hourly rate published for other similar guitar repair work.

However, John, I'm drowning here - I grew up in the trades and part of being in the trades is an understanding that you must get paid a technicians wage if you are working at a competent level with a suitable and modern set of tools, equipment and spares inventory etc. 

I was also an apprentice have had a senior mentors and bosses to pass on the knowledge of what it costs to do business and what one should charge - professionals go broke and lose big time if they get it wrong, amateurs go back to their day job.

Lamentably, I have not helped much here because the problem is subject to broad permutations:   best I can suggest is to work out how fast you should be able to work, what minimum level of tools and equipment (modern cost effective tools - a hammer and chisel, a rough pumice stone and a four inch paintbrush will not cut it these days)  you are going to have to invest in and then work out an hourly rate to support this business undertaking.   Something like that.

Regards, Rusty.

[John Cartwright]

I'm not a pro.  I'm trying to get there, but I just don't have the experience, speed, space are all of the equipment to do it.  I have much of the equipment, but not everything. My speed is all over the place because I just don't get enough practice with any one repair often enough to build that speed and that accuracy together.  I've only done work for friends who know my situation and who know they are taking a risk and I greatly appreciate their help and faith in my abilities.  They keep coming back, so that's a good sign.  I just dont' feel like I'm ready yet.

I've been basing my pricing on suggestions here and by taking an average of posted professional rates for standard operations found on myriad websites and taking about 35% off of that to be reasonable.  I work hard at this, but I'm not a pro.  I do think I should be paid for my skills and repairs, but I'm not asking for the world either

This was a 1.5 inch hole that I filled with similarly grained mahogany on the back of a Harmony Severeign.  Here are pictures.  

It took my a good bit of time, as I'm earning, but it came out really well in the end.  

It sounds like I should just not charge him at all, as there are too many variables for me to account for at this point in my learning.  

 

I'll just let this slide and charge him only for the fret dress, new nut and saddle, at a steep discount of the amalgam of prices I've seen. 

I have no one to apprentice with thought I've tried to reach out to those in my area, and no way to learn but read my books, watch my videos and youtube and ask questions here.  I really need to be in a place wehre I can really be charging full price and taking real customers soon for financial reasons, but it's all in such slow motion that I don't know If I can really do this after all.  

 

[Russell Vance]

Nice work John.

I pretty much understand the frustration that comes with trying to learn this trade in isolation - and that doesn't usually involve working out the business side of things either.   But, play to your strengths - perfect the standard procedures and charge fully for these - earning a fair wage for good work is a good feeling. 

Practice the things that are difficult until you master them - stuff that doesn't work out shows you what you need to learn and you can eventually get on top of a procedure by a process of elimination of the wrong stuff.  But, its a job with a lot of unconnected things to master:

When I started I had my colleague and mentor  in another state do my re-fretting until I learned the procedures and could afford the basic equipment, at which stage the learning really started. I didn't make any money from this, but I didn't screw up any customers guitars and they were happy with the work (which is a many happy returns situation).   I was (still am occasionally) often on the phone asking advice and I sent him a case of wine regularly for all the kind and free advice he gave me when I was stuck.

Similarly, lots of the dudes here are neck reset experts - I'm not - the same colleague who did my fretting is an absolute gun at them (national Martin go to guy) - loves em, powers through them and has a vast experience bank of knowledge and a whole bunch of tools and equipment devoted to the process - easy guess who get the referrals - we make more money by not doing them.

John, it's a tough job to learn in isolation but perseverance and practice will get you across the line - it just may take a little longer than anything else we have ever done!

Regards, Rusty.

[William F.Eden]

Nice job John now all you have to do is shade it in a bit good luck on your next job .Bill............

[John Cartwright]

Thanks!  This guitar definitely has colorant in the lacquer, so getting the shading right was tricky.  It looks better from some angles than others, but the repair is physically smooth and I managed to buff out the over-spray pretty well with 3M polishing papers, leather padded blocks and a little H2O.  It's not perfect, but it's solid.  I'm pretty darn new to spraying and I do find it intimidating, but I'm trying. No spray booth though.  This is all good practice and my friends are generous with their offerings of guitars to be repaired, but I think I might farm out the refinishing and finishing touch ups once I'm up an running full speed.  Does that sound doable?  Repair the hole, sand and fill it myself, and then let a pro deal with the finishing touch-up? (until I can handle better on my own, anyway)

[John Cartwright]

Rusty,  Thanks!

Well, I just joined up with a great group of guys here in Pennsylvania called the Mid-Atlantic Luthiers.  Went to my first meeting today and I'm already making connections - huzzah!  Too, I will be helping out my parents this week back in West Virginia, and I'm going out on a limb to see if any of the two excellent guitar techs I used to call upon for repairs back in the day, would be interested in letting me apprentice for a week or two sometime soon.  I could stay with family and I wouldn't be a threat to their business afterward since I live so far from them now.  Might work, I'll see.  

A local guy offered to let me sit in with him on jobs I'm looking to learn more about like unusual repairs, tricky neck resets, or even fretwork, to see how he does it.  Very generous of him and I intend on taking him up on this.  He's apparently well respected enough that he was sought out to do today talk at the meeting.  So that's a very good sign!

So baby steps, but still they are steps forward!

[Lee Gendvilas]

Hi John!

When you wrote -  I just don't get enough practice with any one repair often enough to build that speed and that accuracy together.  I've only done work for friends who know my situation and who know they are taking a risk and I greatly appreciate their help and faith in my abilities.  They keep coming back...  

man, I felt your frustration. I'm a freelance musician and an elementary music teacher about 4 years away from 80 points (when I can a full retirement) and I've been trying my best for the last four years to make some sort of a go of it. I have my days where I just don't think I'll ever get to where I want to be. But, I have been reading everything I can, logging onto Frets nearly every day, watching videos, practicing, doing small repair jobs, posting here asking for advice from these generous, gracious helpful people, and tried to make sure I had the right tools for the job. I like the pics you posted of your work and I'm impressed. I haven't done any side repairs like this yet and I think you did a great job. Stick with it! I'm going to.

[John Cartwright]

Lee, everyone here is very helpful and friendly - agreed.  Though seeing someone do something first hand is always best.  Fortunately, I just met a seasoned pro in my area that is willing to let me sit in with him now and then, so I'm really excited about that.  He knows his stuff too!  

It is very difficult and slow going, but I do enjoy the work.  I just hope I can get to a place soon where I can hang my shingle and get some real cash coming in even if it's for garden variety repairs and set-up only, at first.  I'm a painter (artist) but I think this can be a good money maker if I can get good enough yet swift enough to make a good profit.  I hope I'm not barking up the wrong tree.  It's as fun as it is daunting though.   When my cousin played his Gibson L-3 that I repaired and refretted for him, it was a real joy to see him play a previously unplayable guitar with me alongside him on the upright bass.  It's a good feeling putting new life into a good ol' guitar.