neck rset on a Vega C-66 archtop

[Dave Richard]

A friend has a Vega C-66 archtop, exact date unknown, but it looks like the one in the attached photo.  serial number is 5572EY, and it looks late 40's/early 50's.  Does anyone have experience with a reset on this model/era guitar?  Are they a standard dovetail?  He has tried to steam apart the joint, without sucess, although the joint is loose(loose at the bottom of the heel, stuck at the top).  It's not hung at the fingerboard extension, as he has cut through that...He's asked me to have a go, and I may, if I can get info on the construction.

[Mark Pollock]

There was a thread on some other Vega guitars recently - maybe this will help?

http://fretsnet.ning.com/forum/topics/vega-parlor-neck-reset-unusua...

Mark

[Ned Knepp]

Can you give us some pictures of the neck joint to show us what he's done to this point. I don't think I would have cut through the fingerboard on this. In my thinking it would have been much better to loosen the fingerboard extension from the body and remove it all with the neck.  I don't know where he cut it but I'm wondering if the dovetail still extends under the fingerboard extension so it can't be pulled out of the slot. 

[Eric Steven Johansen]

I did a reset a while back on a 40's Vega Duotron archtop and it had a standard dovetail. I'm inclined to ask the same question as Ned regarding where the extension was cut. Can you post pictures?

[harrison phipps]

Dovetail, I did one a few years ago it was the short dovetail, less than an inch in length for the mortice and tenon.

[Dave Richard]

I don't have pictures at this time: it will take me a while to get some. I agree, he should not have cut through the extension. Eric & Harrison describe a dovetail joint, which is helpful. I'll get over to see the guitar soon, take pics, report back. Thanks for all your replies!

[Dave Richard]

I now have the guitar, and additional pictures.  Now, after looking closely at the neck joint, I think that it is not a dovetail...but a shallow butted tenon(the neck heel has no shoulder, but is inset into the body).  The owner got it to this condition:  Fret removal, steaming, binding removal, sawing thru the fingerboard at the neck/body joint. Anyone seen or worked on something like this?

It's a 1951 C-66(warrenty card in case!).

[Eric Steven Johansen]

Dave, Just a few observations. Get the fretboard off before you proceed and find out what the joint is. You may have a blind mortise and tenon in there. The fretboard extension reinforcement has been completely compromised and will be needing replacement so get it out of the way after the board is off. A "violin" style joint is possible and for those you must get full access from the top to loosen the glue. Keep the pictures coming.

[Ned Knepp]

This looks like it has a lot of "rock" available but the tongue and fingerboard extension are obviously in the way of the dove tail. You will have to remove them to get the neck out.  Don't assume that the joint isn't a compound taper cut. If you try to pull it straight up ( "up" as in "towards the head") you may end up breaking off the sides of the tail cut into the neck or, worse, breaking out some of the head block and sides. I had to rebuild a dove tail that was removed like this and it's no fun at all.

This joint looks like it was cut before the back was attached. If the back were removed you would probably see that the cut was made the full length of the neck block. It's one way to make a dovetail that can "easily" be cut by hand. you might need to be careful about how this neck joint fits at the fingerboard side AND the tip of the heel. If you can do it without tearing up the heel, I think you should remove the heel cap until you have this back together.

[Dave Richard]

I think, at this point, that it is a 'violin' type joint, about 3/8" deep. I think the owner was steaming in the wrong place- either into the neck block itself, or into the body cavity(given the frets he removed). It seems to me that the joint, properly loosened, should pull up, with the extension, like a regular dovetail. Harrison, was that your experience with the 'short' dovetail you worked on?
The other issue is changing the neck angle, once I remove the neck. The neck is seriously underset. Since there is no shoulder, either the bottom of the heel must move into the mortise, or the top move out- requiring a tapered shim, and a lot of color and finish touch up.

[Eric Steven Johansen]

The "violin" type joint doesn't allow for steam penetration very easily as there usually is no space at the end of the tenon. I usually soak the joint with a 50/50 mix of water and vinegar for several hours and then heat using a shaped spatula inserted in the end of the tenon. I've included a picture of my setup.

[Dave Richard]

I will say again, this forum is invaluble...thanks for all your replies.

I finally got back to this project, and between removing the neck/fingerboard extension(already sawn thru), the water/vinegar mix, inserting a heated shaped putty knife into the joint, AND steaming with a needle...the neck came off, quite cleanly.  The glue seems to be white aliphatic, I was expecting hide. I was surprised how quickly the vinegar/water mix softened the glue. 

Since this joint had failed(pulled away) before any work was begun(hot car?hot attic?) , and it's simply a butt joint(end grain to side grain), I'm a little concerned about it holding after the refit.  Also, I like to use fresh hot hide glue on neck joints, not aliphatic.

 

[Eric Steven Johansen]

Dave, glad to hear things went well. Perfectly understand your desire to use hide glue on the reset so here's something I've done in the past with great success, add a spline to the joint. You have access to enough meat at the heel with the fretboard extension removed cut a slot, mine are 1/4" wide, and insert a piece of hard maple, with the grain oriented the same as the neck, that extends an equal distance into the headblock. Clean up the original joint as best you can and glue her up with HHG. You'll end up with just as much structural glue surface as the original joint, since the butt end of the neck gives none, and fresh wood surfaces for the HHG.