70's MIJ Epiphone 12 string neck joint issue

[David Hardie]

Greetings all. New to this forum. This is my first posting.

I've recently aquired an Epiphone 12 string, MIJ  acoustic guitar. Best I've been able to date this guitar from the seriel number is '71 to '81.  Bolt on neck. When I got it, it was obvious that there was some warping around the sound hole, right where the fingerboard meets the guitar top. The strings were loose as if over time they had "pulled" at the neck joint.

     I've removed the neck and am looking to repair this area. Now I've repaired a few acoustic guitars in the past. Neck breaks and such and I've built and repaired dozens and dozens of electric guitars so I've got a little experince, but with this warping, I want to get the right info. I've taken some photos. Not the best, but I'm hoping you all might be able to inform me on the best way to proceed.

Appreciate ya

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi David and welcome to the forum.

My best guess as to why you haven't gotten a response as of yet is that:

These are historically considered to be poorly designed & built instruments. You have a plywood (as opposed to a solid) top on that instrument. That fact exacerbates the difficulty of affecting a successful repair.

Most of them (MIJ Epi FT's) have similar problems. You should search the archives. There have been several different discussion of this series.  Not many resulted in a positive prognosis for the instrument.

No one wishes to be the bearer of the news that a repair will GREATLY exceed the value of the instrument. Even if repaired, they aren't good sounding instruments. Most of the ones I've seen also have twisted/distorted necks and other 'design' issues.

I wish you the best of luck if you get info on how to correct its MAJOR problems. If you do repair it, include a bridge replacement with a traditional non-adjustable belly bridge. That would improve it's sound by about 200%....maybe.

Kindest regards and I'm sorry I couldn't offer more helpful advice.

[Russell Vance]

Hi David,

What Paul said:

We recently went through this situation with another generic 12 string bolt on - I've done enough of them to say that I'm not doing them anymore as they don't fix well and the cost of doing an effective repair far exceeds the cost of the instrument.   Check out recent FRETS.NET archives for this and you will get a good read about the pathology of this design failure and prognosis for the instrument.

Sorry to be negative here but poor design means some pieces of wood just cannot be guitars no matter how hard they try.

Rusty.

[Russell Vance]

David,

The topic you are searching for in the FRETS.NET archives is "How to fix a warped archtop top"  February 12 2014 - if you cannot get it to come up just say so and i will send it to you via PM.  It completely and comprehensively covers the issues you have.

Rusty

[Jonathan David Griffin]

I agree that the guitar isn't top shelf, but it can probably be made into a playable guitar. If you have plenty of time, some clamps, glue, and sandpaper, you can repair it for very little money. You will probably never completely correct the warped top, but you can try something I've done to warped plywood tops. It has a 50/50 chance of being permanent. If the neck block can easily be completely removed, I would do that. Sand off all of the glue from the block and from the interior of the body. If possible remove the brace under the fingerboard and do the same thing. Put a couple of moist, but not saturated, paper towels on the bare interior of the top where it is warped and let it sit over night. The next day, moisten the towels again. Get two pieces of thick plexiglass or plywood to use as giant clamping cauls. Sandwich the top and paper towels between the large cauls and slowly clamp the top flat. Don't go too fast or it may crack the wood or finish. Once clamped flat, leave it overnight and unclamp the next day. The warped wood will be flattened and you can leave the guitar for a few days for the moisture from the paper towels to dry out completely. Reglue any loose interior bracing. Glue the neck block and brace back in place. You can use this opportunity to get the neck set at a good angle to the bridge. If the bridge is loose, reglue it. Reattach the neck and set the guitar up. This is an outline and there are a lot of missing details, but it's a start. Good luck.

[Russell Vance]

Johnathon,

Please read the archived post that I refer to which will detail why the process you so well described does not work (other than for the first couple of months) in this particular case.  The problem isn't that of a repair the problem is that the design is fatally flawed -which is why you do not see it around any more. The problem isn't the warped top - that's just one of the symptoms associated with the design failure.

Part of the benefits of being a member of this forum is that the professional and semi-pro luthiers who comprise the senior group have actually dealt with these guitars and the problems encountered.  Consequently,  the advice given is a result of actual broad experience earned and gained.   This helps the junior groups make decisions as to what to do and what not to do and so forth and  and cuts straight to the practical processes available. 

Obviously new processes and experiences get a good looking at and we all like to learn new ways of doing things and discuss the innovations - but this ain't that. Please read the archive for a comprehensive and gentler explanation of why this is all so.

Regards,

Rusty. 

[David Hardie]

Thanks Rusty and everyone. I will read that earlier posting here shortly. This guitar came my way at zero cost, so anything I do, anywhere I go, is all fluff. I had hoped it was a good acoustic. Japan is notorious for good craftsmanship and the Epiphone, though now a days comes out of China, do produce a good product now and again. I've got a Casino that is just a wonderful instrument.

     Be that as it may, knowing this isn't that great of a guitar, any repairs or modifications I do can serve as a practice of sorts. As I've said, I've built many many electric guitars and have done some minor repairs on acoustic and have a great desire to get more into acoustic repair and outright building from scratch. Here now with this guitar might be a good spring board. I wouldn't mind trying to make a relatively good sounding guitar out of this. Right now it's not even playable. Someone suggested earlier putting a standard, non adjustable bridge, and the neck actually looks pretty nice. a bit heavy, but its got alot of tuners on there with it being a 12 string, right?

     Anyways, I appreciate the feedback and advice. I'll read that earlier post on this guitar, make some repairs and post pictures and procedures. (If anyone cares). Lol. I know we dont have a Martin or a Taylor here, but probably best I start on something lower end anyways.

Dave 

[Paul Verticchio]

"Japan is notorious for good craftsmanship"  

Historical qualifier: Contrary to tons of misinformation from "lesser informed" sites, their guitars of the 50's & 60's were complete junk. The early & mid-70's yielded better guitars, but no celebratory cigar yet. Japan did not get 'good' at manufacturing guitars until around 1978.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is the Epi MIJ FT's were/are miserably designed guitars and greatly predated Japan's rise to quality.

Just to reinforce what Rust is saying: The MIJ FT's don't so much suffer from a 'build quality" problem; they are doomed because of their DESIGN problems. They implode upon themselves. When you repair a guitar that was designed poorly, you end up with a repaired poorly designed guitar.

Good luck with your project as only you can gauge the importance of your time as meaningful work of value.