E-335 re-finish.

[Dave Yelverton]

Help! I've been given a Heritage E-335 Cherry Red with a badly marked back. It's down to the wood, so the only option has been to strip the back, carefully sand it down (it's a laminate) and re-finish.
I'm having a major problem matching the colour, nor am I sure about the type of finish used. Examining scrapings, it could be thinned pigment, but I can't rule out straight toner. The red toner I can get hold of tends to finish with a tendency to orange,which is fine for sunbursts, but the finish is actually quite a deep red with a pinkish tinge. If it's a thinned pigment finish I can get it matched at a local paint shop. Otherwise I'm in the dark and would appreciate the benefit of your experience

[Bob Webster]

The goal of the exercise is to match the color and match the gloss. I think it's probably prudent enough to get the best color match at the paint shop and then shoot the appropriate finish over that. Otherwise, I think that you're going to drive yourself nuts dealing with color shifts in dried down toner. Does the original finish show the grain of the wood through it?

Bob

[Dave Yelverton]

It does, but if you look at the photo, there does appear to be a degree of opacity. The figuring of the back appears a little unclear. It looks as though they've shot a light amber coat over a wash coat to enhance the grain then applied the colour. And yes, I have been steadily climbibg the wall messing about with colour shifts. I get the feeling that applying a thinned pigmented coat might be my best option here.

[Bob Webster]

Of course, as always, try out the finishing scheme on some similar scrap if you have it. Working with thinned pigment coats will probably be the best bet and you can stop when you get the required opacity. Best of luck and don't kick the dog; that's what wives are for.

Cheers,
Bob

[Dave Yelverton]

Sorry, Bob, the dog's the best option. The wife kicks back!

[Rich Mulcahy]

E-335's were constructed with laminate backs and sides maple or curly maple.In your photo the grain is visable. They probably used a shellac wash coat followed with cherry red lacquer toner,then final coats of clear gloss lacquer. Mix the toner weaker at first keep track of how much cherry(teaspoons or whatever incriments your using)you add to the lacquer.Spray or paint on scap maple.Keep adding and spraying until you get the right color.Since you were keeping track of
how much cherry was added each time.You'll know how much to add to the amount of lacquer that will be used to spray the back.I love chasin' colors. Lots of luck.

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

Dave,

The Heritage people (i believe) are still in business. Why not ask them what they use and how they apply it?

Joshua

[Dave Yelverton]

Thanks Rich. After I lot of thought I was coming round to that conclusion. I had thought that the slight opacity mant pigment in the colour coats, but having looked at the scrapings from the back it seems that the back has been sealed without any prior staining so the toner would tend to slightly mask the grain without obliterating it. I've manged to locate a supplier in UK of Gibson Cherry Red toner so hopefully this is the route to go. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as it's my customer's pet guitar!

Joshua; I have contacted Heritage and I'm waiting on a reply. I know Gibson are stingy with advice. Let's hope their spin-off company don't continue that tradition! If I get a finishing schedule from the horse's mouth, I'll post it here.

[Ry Charters]

Dave,
I worked at heritage for a brief time. Still keep in touch with them, especially their repair guy. (I'm in Kalamazoo too) They keep their recipes somewhat guarded. Most of their color work is applied to the bare wood, but your pic seems somewhat opaque indicating some color on top of a stain. If you don't hear back from them in a week or so, let me know and I'll find out exactly what schedule they used for this finish.

[Dave Yelverton]

Thanks,Ry. I'll certainly take you up on your kind offer if Heritage don't cough! I can't see that a stain was used. There's a distinct golden barrier between the colour and the wood and the grain shows no colour uptake. As Rich said, they may well have used shellac as a sealer. The opacity is variable over the whole guitar. The top is more translucent, and the sides even more so, with a deeper wine colour. The neck is more like an SG with mahogany filler under clear toner. It's the opacity that has me foxed. Possibly a pigmented coat went on at one stage to give it that intense candy/cherry colour. It might well be that a slight amount of pigment was mixed in with toner. Unfortunately it's all mere speculation at this stage!

[Ry Charters]

I know they don't use shellac, but more likely a yellow/orangish sealer/wash coat was sprayed first, then cherry tint mixed with a little pigment. Keep us posted!

[Jim Fleeting]

Hi Dave

Can you let me know who your Gibson Cherry Red toner supplier in the UK is?

Thanks

Jim

[Chris Sisson]

I've done a few Gibson cherry red matches, these were the red on an SG, ES-335, etc. I used red analine dye in laquer sanding sealer over sanding sealer (on maple, of course mahogany takes some brown tint grain filler first). It is pretty easy to match with this method if you have a decent touch-in gun and plenty of light. I had a bottle James Day liquid dye I bought 25 years ago, the Stew-Mac red seems to be about the same thing.