Some More Takamine Woes...

[Mike Kolb]

Not to steal Grahame's thunder, but I also have received a 12-string Takamine with problems. This particular guitar (model EF385, ser # 80110684) was built in 1980 and has had a fairly rough life. It needs new frets, a headstock-crack repair and the top has sunk about .110" (7/64") from flat at the center. As it sits, the neck angle meets the bridge top perfectly, but that's with the top sunk. When (and if) the top can be reflattened, a neck reset will surely be in order.... about par for a 30yr-old acoustic.

BTW, it has interesting pickup (factory-installed)... an active 9V piezo mounted from under the bridge in a cast-aluminum channel of sorts, shown in one of the pictures as best I could.

So what do about the top? The braces are intact and tight and nothing seems amiss under the hood except the top has just, well, sunk over time. The guitar came to me very dry, so I'm thinking of slowly jacking-up the top while humidifying it, but I'm not certain that would 'take' on a permanent basis.   Has anybody here had success in raising a sunken top?

[Ned Knepp]

Morning Mike,
What's the top like below the bridge? It looks like a classic case of bridge rotation to me. With the bolts through the bridge (4 of them??) it probably wouldn't peel the bridge up on the back edge so I suspect a pretty good bulge below the bridge. Could it use a modified Bridge Doctor?

Ned

[Mike Kolb]

Hi Ned....

Yes, the area south of the bridge is bulging up (almost but not quite) as badly as the area north is sinking. The tectonic plates are in motion! I'll try to get a shot of the area behind the bridge in a bit.

As much as I like Bridge Doctors, it really hadn't occurred to me.... so thanks for the fresh insight. The four bolts are a little misleading...the rear 2 hold the bridge down and it appears that the forward 2 keep the aluminum pickup apparatus in place.

Way too much going on down there! Mike

[Mike Kolb]

OK, here's a couple more shots, showing Ned's dead-on diagnosis...classic bridge rotation. The bridge hadn't lifted off the back edge (and the area north of the bridge had sunk so much) that I must've assumed something else was happening... but no. Pics attached are the behind the bridge, in front of it and from the side.

So, I'm considering removing the bridge, flattening the up & down areas with heated cauls as best I can, then installing a Bridge Doctor, whaddya' think? When that's all settled-in, it'll be time to glue the headstock, no doubt reset the neck, refret the beast, string it up and send it packing. All opinions gratefully accepted!

[Ned Knepp]

Mike,
Maybe these are silly questions but that pickup mounting isn't something I've seen before. Do you think the strip is being held against the bridge plate or could that beam be there to keep the bridge flat under the saddle? Surely the saddle slot hasn't been cut through the top so it now set on that metal support?

Ned

[Grahame Myers]

Mike
I think your on the right track with your plan: I've been wanting to try out a Bridge Doctor for some time, but when I worked out the cost of shipping one to Germany, I forgot the idea again until I had a job where I really needed it. But last week, Soundhaus in Lübeck, the music store that I do repairs for, got a whole heap of Breedloves in. And they have a Bridge Doctor installed from the factory, and after reading your post, you gave me an idea: How about if I take out the Bridge doctor out of one of the Breedloves, and copy it? Can't be too hard if I have a real one to use as a pattern, or ?
Progress report on my problem: I spent two hours this afternoon trying to de-glue the main brace in front of the soundhole on my Takamine.No luck: Jeez, that is one BIG brace, it measures 20mm high and 14mm wide, and is resisting stubbornly my attempts to loosen the gluejoint using a hot knife, working through the soundhole. It's just sucking up the heat from the knife, and laughing at me :-) I'm loath to take the back off so I can work more effectively, there must be a better way.
One thing I noticed though: Mine is from March 1985, and has absolutly no top bellying problems, perhaps because it has a cedar top, and not spruce, as yours seems to be ? The neck angle is perfect, if I could just get that *#!%§* brace out so I can lever the top back to where it should be, it'd be well on the way to being like new. I'll think of something, maybe plastic explosive? Does StewMac stock Semtex? :-)

Grahame

[Mark Wallace]

I've seen that pickup assembly before. Fitting a Bridge Doctor in there is going to be a challenge.

[Mike Kolb]

A challenge, indeed, Mark... it's reassuring to hear that someone has seen that assembly before, as I was starting to believe it may have been a bad retrofit. Good question, Ned, but I have no clue yet what may be lurking down there. I suppose the first order of business is to disassemble the whole enchilada and see what goes where. If heated cauls & moisture alone won't do the job (and if a Bridge Doctor seems in order) then I might consider replacing the aluminum pickup structure with a simple undersaddle strip, freeing-up some real estate for the Bridge Doctor.

To be continued.... thanks for the responses.

[Rich Mulcahy]

I have a Yamaha FG-411that had a sunken top just as bad as yours in the picture.I put the guitar in a case with a small tupperware lid through the sound whole and let it lye on the back then i cut a sponge the size of the lid wet it put it on the lid closed the case.Check it daily. Rewet sponge if needed.Mine took about a week or so to come back flat. Its been a year and its still flat.Best of luck on your project..

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

Mike-

That's the Tak "palathetic" pickup.

You can use a JLD, have it straddle the hardware, so that the front of the JLD is on the soundboard, off the bridgeplate; you can either cut down the nylon dowel, so that it will be parallel to the top, or glue in a small footing, approximately the same thickness as the bridgeplate.

If you'd like Don Kendall's #, PM me. He's a salt-of-the-earth gentleman, down in Roswell, NM, always glad to help out with his invention.

[Mike Kolb]

Hi, Jeffrey....many thanks for the kindly offer. If (or when) the installation becomes an issue, I'll certainly take you up on getting Don's phone number.

Jeesh, I had to do a double-take when reading what you wrote about the Takamine "palathetic pickup".... as my first-glance understanding was "pathetic pickup" :) ... which may or may not be terribly far off the mark. To be honest, the pickup and side-mounted controls near the neck (vol/tone) seem to work just fine, so no problems there. Thanks again for the info & we'll no doubt be in touch.

Good stuff, Rich, on the sponge-lid-case information. After disassembly, it'll actually be the first method to try to settle the top down into place. Thanks....

[Greg Mirken]

Call me old and cynical (go ahead, it's true) but you've got a:

-30 year old Japanese 12-string with ply top (and back and sides)
-stupid proprietary pickup (we always called them 'pathetic'; they asked for it)
-potential neck reset from hell

The only sensible thing is to glue the headstock crack and refret if you have to. I don't see how the structural work makes sense; unless you are working at slave wages you'll exceed the value of the thing in labor cost.

[Mike Kolb]

Believe me, Greg.... I've had the same thoughts... over and over again. The story on this instrument is a familiar scenario to me: one of the music stores I do repairs for takes in many instruments on trade-in. The store will give next-to-nothing for a guitar in this condition, but it's SOMETHING, so the customer can get rid of the guitar and have a little reduction on his or her purchase. I get the guitar to give an estimate for repairs.

The store will most always get it at least semi-playable if not in good shape. That's where I am now.... making an estimate for the store, with 2 or 3 options for levels of repair. The store will, no doubt, choose something very close to what you suggested, but I always give them the option to upgrade,. In other words, I'll let them know what CAN be done, and they can pick the service that suits their needs.

You get no argument from me on your cost-vs.wages theory... it's right as rain, but I'd hate to potentially turn away work just because it didn't make sense to me personally. The customer can have the final say, but it'll cost!