Martin D25K "aging" and neck angle

[Rob Mercure]

Folks:

First off this is first post - I want to say that I love the orginal Frets page and feel that this forum is a great second offering from Mr. Ford.

I've got a 1979 Martin D25K - essentially a D18 with Koa sides and back- with the square unadjustable truss rod. In 2003 I had a very good - factory authorized - luthier/repairman reset the neck angle as it had lifted peghead up as Martins do after 15-20 years (I repair mucial electronics and and he and I worked for the same large chain of music stores so I was honored to watch him do it) which made my honey play as I expected. But last year sometime while I was ill and not playing for a while the "neck angle" seems to have changed again - but I feel this is too soon. When I examined the instrument closely though the problem didn't seem to be as much neck angle as the bridge bellying up a bit whild the soundhole area depressed a bit - playing felt exactly like the original neck problem. I really can't figure out what's going on with the instrument as all of the braces seem tight - it's almost like the table "softened" and that area.

Any suggestions as to repair - especially ones that are possible through the soundhole. I've actuall removed and reglued a guitar top before many years ago but I really have trouble working on this instrument since I'm so close to it but my finances are also bad now to farm out the work

Rob

[Jim Bancroft]

Just a quick answer.
Visually sometimes you can't see loose braces. I'd take the strings off and probe around all braces, where they are glued, with a .004" feeler guage. The guage will slip in if they are unglued.

Do you have enough saddle to lower that some, to bring the action down? You can go as low as 1/16" protruding above the bridge.

If the braces are solid, and you bring the saddle down as described above, and your action up the neck is still too high. When I say too high, I mean 1/8" or more, measuring the 6th string at the 12th fret, by setting a 6" steel rule on the fret and measuring to the bottom of the string, you may need another neck reset. It's not unusual a guitar may eventually need another reset, especially if it maybe wasn't set back enough the first fime.

Jim

[Ron Frazier]

Check the first fret. Is the strings to high there?

Ron

[Rob Mercure]

Jim, actually I've already done all the above and working with a pro repair man learned the "evil" of lowering the saddle too far. Since working at BRM - I left in 2003 - my repair skills have increased greatly and I'd probably even tackle a neck reset at this point. So I've taken the strings off, used a feeler gauge, taped the top, etc. and the string runs great until the end of the fret board but he overall angle is off as the front of th bridge is low and the back high - it has "rocked." But the back rising - "bellying" is, as best I remember, not more than is as when I had the neck reset the differernce is the top dropping.

Thanks

Rob

[Greg Mirken]

With your feeler gauge, pay particular attention to the top ends of the X braces where they terminate at the waist. If they are loose there that can allow the soundhole region to sink.

If that's all OK, I'd say this situation would be much easier to diagnose in person than this way.

[Jim Bancroft]

Like Greg say's, I think your next step is have a competent repair person look at it. You can only diagnose so far sight unseen.
But, my gut feeling is, if everything is fine with the body, you may need to change the neck angle with another reset.

Jim

[Ron Frazier]

With the strings off I tap with my finger hard over each brace and you can hear if one is loose. I stick my hand inside the body and touch each brace end with my finger and the top and push down out side and if it is loose you sure can feel it. Then stick in your trusty mirror.

I have used a bridge Doctor on many old guitars the have a tipped bridge and it works wonders. Several new expensive guitars are installing them when building new.

I had a old martin that was bad so I installed one on it and the customer could not believe it was the same guitar. I am not to sure that he liked the idea but 10 years later it is still there and playing fine. I don't think it would be in service with out it..

Ron

[Rob Mercure]

Ron,

Thanks, I'd forgotten about the bridge doctor as my forte' is electronics repair (although over the years I've wound up repairing everything 'cept a steam engine). Since I've not managed to find anything loose - almost all great suggestions I've gotten on this forum I had already tried - and I can't afford to have my regular repairman do it trying the bridge doctor I think I'll order the doctor. Any tips for installing the bridge doctor? Should I start a new thread on this?

Rob

[Jim Bancroft]

Rob,
I wouldn't install a "Bridge Doctor" in a nice Martin. At least, if you can't afford the repair presently, I would take it to a competent Luthier for a free appraisal on what is the proper fix.

Jim

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

I have, and I would.

[Bob Webster]

Jeffrey, can you please tell us about your experience with the Bridge Doctor? Does it live up to the advertising hype regarding tone, volume, etc.? It's extremely difficult for me to imagine that the guitar wouldn't sound totally different (and not in good ways) after attaching such a large mass to the bridge.

Bob

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

Almost all of the install I've done, have been for the tonal/volume/sustain enhancement. For what you need to do, untorque a warped top, I doubt that you'd hear the improvement for awhile, until the top has "relaxed" back into something like flat.

When a JLD is balanced against the torque of the strings, the top of the guitar is less a stressed dome, and more a diaphragm. Contrary to the JLD website--my apologies to Don Kendall, the "D" in JLD, who I order mine from--I believe that the abovementioned improvements come from
the freed-up top driving the internal air volume harder, which would account for everyone feeling the back vibrating more against their bodies.
The JLD site talks of the vibrations traveling down the block & the dowel, but I differ on this.

I like to do an install with relatively new strings on the customer's guitar, loosen them, do the install, hand it back, so that the only variable is the JLD. Every customer's face has lit up, on playing the first chord--this is damned satisfying, to me.

Guitars sound bigger, with more sustain. You won't get more sparkle in the high end, that's why we have titanium bridgepins. I don't recommend the ones with the brass bridgepins, as you can run into break angle problems with them.

The only guitar that didn't have an obvious improvement, was my Rainsong OM1000; I tried one, and the guitar is so stiff already, it just said, "So?". JLDs are a major reason I can tweak small body Yamahas to some jaw-dropping sound.

I hope this helps; feel free to bother me about this, or anything. Well, nearly anything.

[Rob Mercure]

Jim - Do you have concerns about the B Doctor? Most everything I've read has been good as well as references from repairman friends. I remember when it came out around 2002 when I was still working at the music store and while my repairman had not used it he had gotten good reports from his peers. So please provde us with your thoughs about this repair tool!

Currently I'm living back in Wise, VA in the true heart of the Central Appalachians as "equally as far from everywhere" as somewhere can be. When I had the last work done I was in Cincinnati. So there really isn't anyone within a short drive I could get to look at the instrument - the only repairman in the areas is essentially a "fret dresser." Porbably the nearest competent repairman/lutherier is at least 3 hours away. Due the recent/current illness I've been bed bound for the most of the last year without any way of making a living as such I'm essentially indigent until I can get well or get on disability. Until last month I didn't evern have an automobile - hitchhiked to doctor's appointments- so I've just now gotten the ability to travel around my town/county. This truck has some holes in the frams as big as my fist and I really am not comfortable journeying to Ashevlle (the nearest location of a verified repairman/lutheir) in this truck,

While some of don't have the few blessing of suburban life - such as easy access to professional services - we also don't have to put with all the congestion and lack of community. All life's a trade off but I'd rather be in the limited small town where I grew whill ill and near major medical centers in a cold community that sees me as a disposable consumption/work unit. (''nuff preaching).

Thanks

Rob