Question about alternative bracing for old Bay State

[John Cartwright]

Hello again, I have my first work order here. I'm still not ready to hang out my shingle, but he's a friend and wants to help me out. He has this old Bay State parlor guitar that he bought fifteen years ago. It had had some previous work done on it, but he purchased it in two pieces and never got around to getting it repaired...here's where I come in!

He is fine with the guitar being a nice parlor guitar strung with Silk and Steel or similarly appropriate strings for this sort of guitar structure, but wanted me to investigate if it was possible or advisable to remove the braceings and make/install new ones to allow for regular bronze acoustic strings to be used. (of course this would mean I would have to make for him a new bridge as the intonation would be off seeing how it was fitted with a straight fretwire saddle with no compensation.)

Also, the beautiful Bolivian rosewood back has some previous repairs to it with spruce cleats. They are nicely done and secure, but should I replace them with rosewood cleats, or let sleeping dogs lie?

Any thoughts folks?

Thanks!
John

[William F.Eden]

Well John This is what I would do if I had the Guitar. I would take out the braceing and put in the reguler bracing for a steel string guitar and a Maple bridge plate to go with it .And leve the spruce cleats were they are.Just my take on the subject. good luck on your project. Bill.""""""

[Tim Mace]

I don't think you can beef up a parlour size and expect it to hold up under lg. dia.Surely the neck can't be that strong.It looks well made but fragile.Nice tight spruce.

[John Cartwright]

You raise a good point. I've looked carefully at the neck and it appears to be Spanish cedar, with a very hard V profile, and no truss rod nor any indication of neck reinforcement. I would think that if it had a steel rod of some sort inside it would be heavier than what it is. I suppose I could remove the fingerboard and install a truss rod if he wants me to, but to be honest, this baby is in such exceptional condition with a flat top and pristine neck that is straight as an arrow, I don't really want to mess with the neck at all, it's just too perfect. ...perhaps I'm answering my own post here.

But anyway, thanks guys, and I welcome any further comments and suggestions should my friend want me to forge ahead with the restructuring once I get back with him regarding these details.

Thanks!
John

[john r toothman]

i recently reset the neck on an old Harmony which had the same bracing pattern as yours except yours has one more cross brace. this guitar had been strung for years with steel strings and the top was in good shapeyou might be able to just put this back together the way it is . good luck

[john r toothman]

stay with the xtra lite strings martin made em for years with no neck reinforcment

[John Cartwright]

If I were to go this route, would you advise filling the old saddle slot and re-setting a new saddle to compensate for intonation, or would these specific strings even pose a problem with the original straight saddle?

PS. I see you live in Fairmont! I grew up near Huntington, went to Marshall too. ...small world.

Thanks,
John

[Rob Mercure]

Actually I've never seen a Martin without neck reinforcement - but what they used was a "bar" fo ebony or rosewood originally - nothing metal. Perhaps this is what you mean.

Rob

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

I have a Bay State similar to this guitar except it is in one piece. My plan is to reset the neck and string it with nylon or gut equivalent strings. I've spoken with a repair person who has done a reset on a Bay State. He tells me the neck joint is not a dovetail, but rather like a violin neck joint and suggested converting to a bolt on neck (so as not to rely totally on glue to hold the neck in place). I'm inclined to agree.

My feeling is one should return the guitar to original but playable condition. So I would reset the neck, keep the bracing as is, and string it as was the fashion when the instrument was made (real gut might be an eye opener if not a strain on the wallet). Stringing with nylon will make the saddle set-up (i don't think the configuration of the bridge will allow a compensated saddle) less a problem and the removable neck might allow some adjustment of scale length.

But it's not my guitar.

Joshua

[Donald A. Fortune]

Hi John -- If you are going the replace the spruce patches then might as well clean up the braces a bit (sand and ect.)
for the most part I would leave well enough alone, the patches look fine.. they wont be visible unless you use a mirror and a lite to see them.... maybe tone them with some stain ??? I for the most part would leave well enough alone..
Peace,
Donald

[John Cartwright]

Many thanks. I've talked with my friend and we are going to leave things pretty much as-is, except for some saddle and bridge work.

I noticed though that the action would be quite high, not for neck issues - straight as an arrow all the way - but because the top part of the bridge where the fret is inlaid into it, is very high. This is just a guess, but I assume that it is high like this on account of the broader vibration pattern of a gut string compared to a steel string - I know it works that way for my double bass - is the same true here?

Anyway, we're thinking of working that bridge down to make the action lower for Silk and Steel strings - good plan? (the wings of the pyramid bridge are far too thin to take anything off of the bottom)

thanks,
John

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

John,

You desribe an instrument that need to have its neck reset. While the action on a guitar strung with nylon or gut is usually higher than a guitar with steel strings, that is not the issue here. The neck is pointing too low. A straight edge down the neck should land just below the top of the fret that is serving as the saddle.

If you work the bridge down, the guitar will lose volume. Then you'll need to make a new bridge. Of course you'll make that bridge in a modern fashion with a compensated saddle and a blind slot. But the neck will still need to be reset.

If the guitar is in the condition you've shown (back off) you can't really tell what the action is like because you haven't been able to string it up, though I am certain you are correct in the action being really high.I would put the back on, string it with nylon and really assess what you've got.

You've said the guitar is in good original condition. My feeling is you should keep it that way.

Just my opinion.

Joshua