I'm replacing the saddle on a 12 string guitar.  Should it be slotted to accurately space the strings or left smooth like a 6 string?

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I'm with Steve, please reconsider your decision to walk away - this forum is all the better for the ability of it's members to exercise restraint and consideration in dealing with higher levels of dissent and remarkably different opinions constructively and relatively politely.  However, I/we sometimes get in too deep or get a bit of red mist but a couple of deep breaths and an apology normally does the trick.  Forgiving bunch that we are. is a passionate and eclectic group of amateurs and professionals alike from widely dispersed geopolitical and cultural backgrounds and socio-economic groups.  An amazing collection of individuals with extraordinary knowledge and experience.   That's what I think of before posting along with reminding myself that imparting knowledge, dissecting problems and helping is more important than simply wanting to be right of have my professional ego stroked. 

I took the step the other day of ventilating a difference of opinion directly by off forum message to FF (first time ever) for his adjudication - it didn't come down my way and as such we agreed to disagree - but it was not done publicly and it was certainly done respectfully and politely.   Nobody lost face and I learned a bit about how the view of things depends on where you sit.  Somedays, the dragon wins.

My opinion is we all need to think about how we come across to others and I am constantly reminded by the quality and depth of contribution that I do not know as much as I think I do, or worse I can be wrong or misinformed - alternatively, the occasional thanks or accolade is most invigorating.   Please reconsider.



Well, yeah, sometimes you can come across as abrasive, Murray. I think we touch a nerve with our comments about your Ebay offerings but I don't think most of us were aware that these were yours. 


 You have also made some good contributions to the forums as well so maybe you can just be a bit more aware of what you write and we can be just a bit more flexible in how we take different views.  I like this forum a lot and my personal opinion is that we should have room for most any idea as long as the poster is respectful of the other member of the "club".  It seems to me that things went wrong when some of us thought that others were making a personal attack upon them.  I don't think that was actually the intent in any instance.  Of course, it's up to you whether you want to continue here or not. I hope you do but be aware that I may not agree with what you post :)  ( But, of course, I'm sure  you will agree with everything I post. )   

Yes Murray - Hang tough. This is a cool place to learn and make friends. We need everyone's thoughts on board! 

I don't lose any sleep over stuff like this but I personally would never post that I am leaving or staying.  Why?  It's potentially divisive of the community where some very decent folks feel compelled to encourage one outcome and others who are also very decent folks may prefer a different outcome.

So for me I either quietly fade away wishing to do-no-harm.... or continue to participate with an eye, always, on adding value to the conversation or not posting at all.  If no one in a position to stop Murray's participation (Frank) had indicated that this was under consideration (banning) I also fail to see why one would post at all that they are leaving unless it is an attempt to divide and/or garner support.

I must say though that I was surprised at the commercial promotion where Murray has a vested interest in selling things that he has productized AND never to my view or knowledge disclosed that he has a commercial interest in the products or techniques that he promotes.  I did not expect to see that happen here.

When I read an answer here my expectation is that the poster who provides the answer is discussing what works for them or what they have been exposed to that they believe may be of assistance to the OP.  It's way different, in my view, when someone says that you don't need this or that but you do need this over here and then fails to disclose that they are the seller of the solution that they are promoting.  That seems underhanded.

So with this said time for me to fess up too....  I like many of the products that I use from Stew-Mac and others AND I have no vested interest in the success of these companies or their products.  I pay for what I have and sell nothing.  End disclosure....

Oh yeah, one more thing if I may please.

I have some experience with Lutherie forums... and I also have observed time and time again examples where pros, folks who make their living doing this stuff, get upset at some point and leave.  It's been my experience that they just fade away with no announcements but this is not my point.

What is my point is that when one is in the biz regardless of how much they may be personally inclined to always help others where they can at some point it can become a balancing act, a rather fruitless one too I will add.... as to if the participation on a public forum has become too costly in terms of reputation.  More specifially it's always going to be the case that someone will promote a method that is, well, unsound and not how folks with great experience do things.  It's true that there are often many ways to do most things Lutherie related but it's also true that it's impossible on an Internet forum to know the personal workmanship standards of all posters or in other words who's a hack and who's not...

One person's definition of "getting the job done" may be vastly different than the next persons.

So when the pros see discussions lead into areas of methods that are unsound and not how it's done by the pros who have high standards they may, I say may, think twice about the association with the forum all together.

In another life I actually examined this issue in detail and chased a few pros asking them to come back to other forums.  The universal argument that I heard at least ten times now was that it was "embarassing" for them to have their name on a public forum where "hack work" seemed to be encouraged or described and unchecked.  I seem to recall Rusty bringing up this very point not long ago here too.

Understanding as I do that we are a community of novices and pros it's natural for all of us to be exposed to ideas that range from unsound to state-of-the-art.  At that point it's up to the individuals to argue the merits of the ideas that they embrace and promote and it may be that the person with the best argument AND verifiable outcomes win.  Not always though....  When it comes to pass that some individuals subscribe to different standards for basic human decency in terms of how they are willing to interact on a public forum it's understandable that at some point a pro may say the heck with it and just fade away.

What results is we all lose the benefit of their intellects, experience, and methods as per the posts that they once shared with the community.  In short we all lose when this happens and if you have not noticed some forums with no particular forum in mind may be very nearly completely devoid of pros at some point as a result.

So what's left?  In my view this problem can be overcome by encouraging all views but also relying on verifiable results and discouraging personal attacks or someone with a stronger personality peeing in the collective canteen by making claims that cannot be substantiated in an effort to promote their point of view.  There is no substitute for basic human decency in respect to how we all interact with others here.

Playing nice with others may not be everyone's cup of tea and I understand this.  But no one has the right to stifle the views of anyone else when that view may be important to other members.  This is why personal slights, attacks, or making claims that cannot be substantiated in an effort to drown out the views of others is more than personal - it can kill a forum.... if unchecked.

Hesh, I for one really appreciate your time spent on posts. Makes me think. Regarding Murray's, or anyone's tools/products. I did not immediately read that he was the maker as well. But, what does it matter? We guitar/instrument guys are a fairly small community and seemingly always experimenting. I don't think posted sources, promotions, or motives matter at all as long as they are addressing a specific post. (Straight spam started posts not included.) It's all just topic information.  At some point we just need to make informed decisions for ourselves. I'm guessing that Murray took time to make his tool with someone like Jack in mind. Not to swindle or underhand anyone. I don't know the guy, but now I know his tools are available. What the Heck. It's not like a used car salesman stinging someone for several grand. Cheers. 

I joined this forum to exchange ideas.  Manners are important and communicating them in written words sometimes causes misunderstandings. Like a former mentor told me once - it's not what you say, sometimes it's how you say it. 


Quite frankly, I bowed out of this thread because it was getting a tad hostile for my tastes.  We all have varying levels of experience and a diversity of viewpoints.  That is the beauty of this forum.  Let's make peace, mind our manners and resume the conversation.

I agree with Thomas and J R, how did this thread get so off topic? Hesh makes great points, as usual, and I really like the "verifiable results" point. The thing about posting on a board such as this one is you have the time to read your comments before they post, so I see no reason for the apparent lack of self editing. I think it's important to be clear, honest, respectful, and verifiable in all comments placed here, for the long term health and viability of this forum.


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