Es125 finish problems and crazy FB Radius

[Luke Single]

So am working on a friends 55' es125. The fretboard seems to have a compound radius from 7.25nut to 12" bridge. Is that factory? It dosent appear to have been re fretted but the fret board seems to be in very good shape and the neck is perfectly level.
Also I am simply gaining my skills to become a professional luthier and this is the first real vintage guitar I have worked on. Please don't think I'm screwing guitars up. But the finish is very brittle around the fret board. I used low tach tape and destickified the tape on a shirt but it still lift the finish a bit!!! So I learned my lesson. I've never done that before and I feel terrible. I will be even more careful next time. My buddy doesn't care but it brought up the question... What if I had done that to a real customers guitar? How do I approach the problem because it seems like something that a finish repair on that would be ugly and devalue the guitar even more then just leaving it. Do I tell the customer hope for the best? Offer to cover the bill? What would you pros do? Surely there has been an accident at your shop at least once... :/
I will attempt to attach pictures. Is there anyway to repair this or keep it from flaking more without significantly devaluing the guitar... Although this guitar isn't worth a lot m, if a guitar of this vintage had a similar finish problem is there a way of fixing the finish or keep the finish from flaking off more without significantly devaluing the guitar.

[Russell Vance]

Hello Luke,

I am replying so you will not be disappointed by a lack of response to your questions - the likely reason for the lack of response is that, as the title of the site says, this forum  is "...a meeting place for Builders, Repairers and Players".   This is not to say that you are not entitled to present here and as you see all the forum members do their best to assist members with matters of concern. The following advice will likely draw some flak or comment from other members but it's my take on how one at you position on the ladder should approach the problem of getting into this business. 

While a lot of us learned our trade over many years by trial and error and hard won advice from others in the game,  times have changed:    Entry level training and information related to luthiery and guitar repair is available by way of many excellent readily available books, videos (Stewmac/dan Erlewine et al)  and Youtube media and the expectation is that, I for one, expect a basic level of knowledge to be shown and all relevant web and media searches to be done before a question is posed here on this "working" forum.

Otherwize, we (and a lot of us have a full/part time job in luthiery -and time is money) end up fielding endless basic questions about stuff that is already answered in Luthiery 101 books and media.

You have a goal to become a professional luthier - you will not reach that goal by trial and error and question and answer learning - not these days where the standards for repairs are so high due to knowledge and equipment - you need to go do study - and lots of it, gain skills and invest in tools and equipment   You will note, from a current post regarding the Stewmac shop tour, that most of the working stiffs in that center of excellence are graduates of a highly respected luthiery school (the RobertoVenn School of Luthiery mentioned in this case). 

These guys are also networked and on the same page when it comes to basic and advanced qualifications and  capabilities which is the face and future of modern luthiery.  They also understand that a knowledge of small business is useful.

So, you have a lot of work in front of you, but you now have some stuff to think about.

To answer your immediate questions very briefly:

1. If you damage a customers guitar due to negligence (and that includes a lack of knowledge) you pay for a qualified repairer to rectify the problem if you cannot  fix the damage yourself.

2. The best way to avoid damaging vintage finishes is not to touch them and protect them at all time when working - and, yes, most of us have lifted finish at one time with masking tape - consequently most info on the subject advises against using masking tape on vintage finishes (low tack is maybe OK on sound finishes and modern polys - but even that can get tricky when nitro finishes react with the tape).      

3. We use neoprene mats cut to suit to protect finishes (similar to the car industry protective mats and shields) but soft pliable cardboard is a cheap substitute.

Regards,

Rusty.

   

[Luke Single]

I have certainly spent my share of time in the books and videos and reading forum entries. I have put the time and dedication into learning and not doing trial and error. I have been studying for the past 5 years or so and just recently decided its time to start doing. I believe I have more then basic level of understanding repair luthier.
Maybe I should have rephrased my questions. I have started a few threads here and have contributed in a few threads here as well. Every time I have been treated with dignity and respect. I apologize if my thread appeared to be amateur and ignorant I will keep that in mind next time I post.
Thanks for the input.

[Russell Vance]

Luke, it's part of doing stuff by remote control - I have no idea of your capabilities or level of expertise other than to take the problem you encountered and decide where I think you are on the ladder - its not ignorant (and amateur is just fine because we all have been there) to ask the questions but around here you inevitably get additional advice as a by product of an answer.   Take my advice as given in good faith - if its misdirected or not applicable just say so as you have done and forget the bits which don't fit. 

My main concern was, given that this could have been a valuable vintage instrument and a customers guitar at that, you may have been getting in too deep or too soon.  That I took the time to reply in length and with consideration is sufficient proof of my respect - and I dignified your request with a reply.   I shall try to be more careful in future.

Regards,

Rusty. 

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Luke.

Rusty gave you good info in the form of the unvarnished truth. I've always worked (as I'm confident all of us do) under the presumption that any damage to the instrument incurred while in my trust will come out of my own pocket. We've ALL lost money on a repair here or there because of 'bench damage' in our careers.

I have to say that the damage in the 1st photo looks a lot like the damage caused by out gassing  from a deteriorating pickguard/pickup cover OR a spot where someone once kept a vinyl strap on the guitar. There's been a chemical reaction of some sort. The other chinks on the upper bout can be made nearly invisible by using a Steinway Touch-up Pen (a black Sharpie).

There are some telltale signs of a potential problem (the bubbled finish in the 1st photo). Sometimes we have to abandon the use of tape and work in small spots utilizing hand held masking materials. In other words, sometime we just have to improvise a solution.

The way I approach these types of issues is to THOROUGHLY inspect the guitar prior to accepting the work or giving an estimate. Discuss the possible 'bad things' that can happen to the old, brittle finish with the customer. That way, the customer can make an informed choice in how he/she wants you to proceed.

If an issue is discovered post-evaluation, you should contact the customer, let him/her know what you're up against and modify the work order &/or estimate. This reinforces your commitment to do the best work possible and keeps an open line of communication going between you & your customer. It's just a good business practice.

You may also want to check with your insurance agent to see if you can get a specialized business policy that will cover damage &/or loss that you, yourself, cannot cover. It likely won't be cheap and I can almost guarantee you that your standard home owners policy won't cover instruments in your trust.

Finally, it's NEVER a sin to reject an instrument if the repair is out of  your comfort zone or the range of your capabilities. A referral to a 'appropriately qualified' repair person will reflect well upon you & your business. We all have our limitations and building a "within 50 miles" network with other skilled repair folk will benefit you for decades.

Oh ya...don't let a single incident like this discourage you. It happens to all of us, and me more than I care to admit. My college music professor told me (when discussing the difficulties some of us were having while learning to play the violin) that you have to practice for 5 years just to sound "bad" on the instrument. The same can be said about instrument repair.

I hope some of that information is worthwhile to you.

Best of luck, our friend :)

[Luke Single]

Thanks Paul I appreciate the comments and words of wisdom. That does seem like a possibility of some off gassing of the pickguard maybe even a strap. I've contacted a local luthier to take a look at it for me to see if it should be repaired.

[William F.Eden]

I would just refinsh the top of the guitar LUKE .I redon a T-125 two years ago the same coular.Bill......

[Luke Single]

Wow that looks nice William. Ill take that into consideration. Thanks again 

[Kerry Krishna]

 Luke , Russell's and Paul's responses were bang on. There is likely not a single repair person here that would say 'I know all there is to know about this subject', and as such, we are all students.

  As far as the taking up of the lacquer, I would imagine that there is also no one here that has not done this at some point.

Just last week in my shop, I removed a piece of super low tack tape that had been on one of my own instruments for almost two years. ( this was super stupid of me by the way. Tape should NEVER be left on any axe more than two days in my books) I was pretty disappointed to see that the 'glue' on the tape had reacted with the lacquer.

 My axe though, so no problem other than disappointment with myself.

It happens to all of us at some point.

  As far as the 'it's your mistake' goes, you have to do everything in your power to make it right, even to the point of sending it to a REAL Luthier's shop for repair. If we personally do not have the knowledge needed to do repairs on our own mistakes, then this is what we will do. It is simply a 'professional's attitude'.

  When I was starting out, I had a customer's axe that had large clamps on it, fall off my bench.    There was nothing TO give back to the customer.

I had to buy him a brand new guitar.

Stuff like this happens, and it is all part of the learning process.

I may be 'odd man out' on this site, but as far as I am concerned, I have NEVER minded paying for Luthiery knowledge, and I have done that since the beginning of my instrument repair life.

You can trust me when I say this too... The money outlay for that hard won knowledge has been a HUGE amount of cash over the last 19 years, but it has been a rare occasion that I have minded parting with any of that cash.

The 'knowledge' gained was well worth it.

  I am glad that you are here and asking questions. This is a great place for respectful dialog, and I certainly appreciate your responses and the mutual respect that they convey.

 Stick around Bucko.

It may be that we will soon be asking a question that YOU can help us with!