Fretting over frets...

[John Cartwright]

Hey out there,

I'm remaking a Strat for my cousin, replacing the body but refurbishing the 1980's-early 1990's ESP maple neck.  

I removed the old frets without issue, leveled the finger board, re-lacquered the board, sanded and buffed to match the rest of the neck, cleaned the slots thoroughly, used a fret roller to radius the new fret wire a smidge rounder than the fret board radius, cleaned the wire with naptha and proceded to fret using a malet like Frank Ford uses, and over all followed his lead per Frets.com, but I added a block of wood to reduce potential bending or denting of the frets.  It appeared to me that I seated the frets well, but closer inspection revealed that the center of some frets (maybe 6 or 7) stuck up in the middle creating an arch above the center of the board.  I could take a piece of wood and strongly press those frets down and saw them spring back up when I released pressure.  I waxed the fingerboard to protect it from the CA glue I would soon use, braced my neck and used a pipett to administer water-thin CA glue along the fret line and immediately applied strong pressure at the center of the fret with a wooden block for 30 seconds.   This seemed to seat them much better and I figured I was in the clear, and checking with my fret rocker and straight edge seemed to confirm this.

So, I cleaned the wax off of the fingerboard with naptha, and taped it well to protect the finger board and started leveling as usual......

OK, here is where things started to get a bit strange.  Now, I made sure the frets weren't moving up and down and that the glue was solid before leveling, but what happened was, I would level a little bit (the nut was removed, mind you) the full length of the neck per usual and I would test my work with a LM fret rocker.  I found some problem areas, and kept leveling.  After a bit I realized I needed to address some of the frets individually, and used one of those advancing StewMac sanding thingie's for fret work to level off just an individual fret, then I would check with the fret rocker.  All seemed well and I moved on......

To truncate this a bit, what ended up happening is this: I would level, check my work and things would look good, so I would procede to rounding the frets and sanding/buffing them up to a polish.  Upon checking with the fret rocker, I noticed all sorts of high spots!  So I used the StewMac thingie and worked those frets down until things were right, but by the time I got back to a full polish on the frets (and I'm not applying undue pressure) I'd check my work with the fret rocker and I'd find more hight spots!!!!!  I double checked to see if there were any frets moving up and down, but can detect NO movement of the frets, yet each time I try to get things level I find new hight spots!!!!!

I'm using a sand bag to support the neck, and the truss rod is completely loosened. 

I think I've gotten things finally evened up, but I'm alarmed by how much material I've had to remove from the new frets to get where I needed to go.

Can anyone advise or correct me?  What's going wrong here?

Sorry if I made this too long, but I wanted to cover my bases so you guys didn't have to ask too many questions of me unnecessarily.  

Thank you for any help you can provide!!!!! :-) 

-John

 

[Pierre-Antoine Roiron]

Ho boy, I hate when this happens. I just believe your frets keep moving in and out. This shouldn't happen. Maybe the fret slots are a bit too wide or too polluted by wax remains. Most of the time, gluing the frets should be enough, but sometimes you have to widen the fret tang (of course, stewmac sells an un-affordable tool for this).

Another thing tickles me : it seems like your varnished the fretboard before fretting? The usual process is to fret before varnishing and scrape the varnish off the frets when levelling. I personally like to give a coat of varnish to keep the fretboard to the cleanest, then fret, then varnish and scrape. I buff the varnish after the frets are buffed.

[John Cartwright]

This is a used neck and it's been refinished once already, but needed leveling, which sanded through the non-original finish. 

I didn't know about the lacquering after fretting rather than before.  I figured it would be best to lacquer before so as to ensure that I achieved a uniform sheen after sanding and buffing to match the rest of the neck.  I worried I would have higher gloss areas in the center of the space between frets and a duller matt finish moving up against the frets. 

I was on YouTube a video of a guy who glued his frets well before cutting and filing the fret ends.  I found this video by accident looking for something else, but it may explain why I could feel the frets vibrating under my hand when bracing the neck and running the file down to trim them flush.  

I've got several hours into this neck project, but should I just pull the frets, level the board and start all over again?  I mean, it seem stable now, I just hate how much metal I had to remove to get it where it needs to be.  I don't know, maybe it's not stable.  Thoughts?  -Thanks!

[Russell Vance]

John,

The vibration you are feeling when you file the fret ends means your frets are loose.  This is probably due to over-sized and/or worn fret slots and you will need to address this issue and re-fret the neck if you are to succeed here. The observation that the frets have not seated in the center of the neck (sprung is the word) is also a clear indication that the fret tangs are not gripping the slot walls.

Most of the fixes for this are difficult and expensive but a Stew Mac fret tang expander is probably the easiest way for you to fix your problem and then use medium density superglue to fill the slots when re-fretting.  

My choice of fixes if there is enough material depth in the fingerboard and the side dots are not too close to the surface is to jig the neck, remove a millimeter of material, deepen the fret slot and use a deep tang fret (frets are manufactured with different tang depths - it helps to have a full range of frets)  to bite into new material.  I also wick water into the slots to expand the existing wood (and then blow it out with air - a bit of moisture is also good for helping the CA glue (use medium) go off and harden up.

And, Pierre-Antoine does what I do - shoot a couple of skinny coats of lacquer before re-fretting - it doesn't get into the slots - even if you tried - and forms a good base for taping or waxing (I use tape- I don't like waxing anywhere near where I'm going to shoot lacquer - so I don't wax - ever.  Unlike my main squeeze who waxes frequently).  It also means you shoot a couple of coats less onto the frets in this finish schedule - which makes removing the lacquer on the frets easier and finally it enables you to roll the preliminary finish around the edge of the fingerboard and onto the neck back before you fret which has some advantages as well.

Keep reading and watching vids - if this stuff was easy everybody would be doing it.

Rusty.

[John Cartwright]

Ah, Ive noticed a back-bow to the neck even with the truss rod loosened completely.  It's slight, so this may be why I missed it before.  Could this be causing some of the problems I'm having?

[Russell Vance]

It wont help, but it's not the cause of the problems with the frets seating.  It will however become a major problem when you attempt to set up the guitar if the strings do not pull the neck into positive relief. particularly if you put some compression into the neck with wide(r) tangs on the frets.

Rusty.

[John Cartwright]

The frets were not difficult to drive in at all, but it takes a fair amount of force to manually simulate a forward pull form strings.  Do you think I'm in the clear?  Or, should I just pull the frets, buy new fret stock and start all over?  

I will say that there is about .008" or .20mm difference between the hight of the frets in the upper registry toward the body, that didn't need as my leveling, and the frets toward the nut.  I can't imagine this is good, but what's your (and anyone else's) opinion? Thanks!!! -John

[John Cartwright]

That should read: "that didn't need as much leveling as the frets toward the nut."  (palm to forehead)

[Gary Fried]

I have run into this issue before and being that I am ocd when it comes fret work, I would definitely pull them out and start again. To fix the problem of having loose slots I dip a q-tip in thin CA and run it over the fret slots and follow with some accelerator. I will do this to each slot until I get the fit that I desire. It works every time and can save you a lot of leveling headaches. As a matter of fact on every refret I do, I do this once before my final finishing sand before I install the frets just in case the end grain is soft from years of sweat. I believe Frank has this on his site so all credit to him.  

Regarding the relief situation, on an acoustic it may fly but on an electric I always like to be able to dial in some relief because of the lighter strings. 

[Christian Johnson]

Frank's got a bit on frets.com on how he makes his fret tang expanders.  I made one several years ago and use them often.  Prevents this issue.  I had the same problem on an Ovation I did and realized this tool is essential.  Rusty's right.  You gotta start over.

[John Cartwright]

Thanks everyone for your replies.  I will be ordering a variety of fret stock and one of the tang adjusting tools from StewMac and prepare to refret this neck.  He isn't married to the neck, so the earth will not shatter either way, but I really want this to be right and hone my skills.  From what Russell and others have pointed out, it appears that the frets were indeed loose in their slots.  I just don't understand why I have a back-bow if the frets are loose.  Could it be that it's not a back-bow but instead, that I might have been inaccurate in my finger board leveling?  

[Mark A. Kane]

I'll address the back bow. Regardless of how it happened, this is how I'd likely go about fixing it. I'd first put a small amount of tension on the rod so that when the board is level and fretted, I can loosen the rod and get a hint of relief. The neck needs to be supported along it's length and held fairly rigid. I use a neck jig. As for leveling, I'd start with a well-sharpened cabinet scraper and a long straight edge. Using the straight edge to identify high spots, I work them down bit by bit, using the appropriate radius gauge to keep things tidy. I angle the blade so it doesn't fall into the fret slots. I also use the entire length of the scraper, not just the middle (I figure if I've gone to the trouble of turning a good hook on the whole blade, I may as well use all of it). I can usually get away with using just the long straight edge to check the flatness I'm after, but sometimes I'll use shorter lengths to be extra precise. Once I'm satisfied with the flatness, only then will I go after the board with sandpaper and a full-length leveling tool. Here is the important part about the use of such a tool: I get the best results with very short strokes, say, 2 inches or less. I find that, even being as careful as I can be, if I use medium or long strokes, the board will invariably end up with a back-bow. I use the long leveling tool really as a way to ensure a uniform finish; the board might get 30-60 seconds treatment with this tool. I rely on the scraping to actually get it level. After this step, I measure/cut the slot depths in the area I've worked with the scraper to ensure that a fret will seat fully. 

There are many ways to skin this particular feline; feel free to adapt and modify to suit your needs. Good Luck!!