Stainless steel refrets

[tadej bratkovic]

Hi all,

I will soon be doing my first SS refret on a Strat and while searching for some good info on the internet it only confused me a bit further.

I have already dealt with EVO gold and had great results, so I hope this matters at least a tiny bit.

I can press or hammer the frets, but hammering is my preferred method. Should I over-radius or bend it to the exact fretboard radius? There's a lot of different info on this subject, I personally like over-radiusing because the tang bites a little better. Of course even with EVO I exaggerated the over-radius less than with NS.

I pretty much settled on the idea of cutting the wire very short and then just filing the edges without any nipping, but I am still not confident about over-radius, I am very curious what you guys think about it.

If anyone has other helpful tips, please do share.

Thanks in advance, guys.

[Mark A. Kane]

This is what I use to cut the biggest S/S fretwire to length without a thought:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00169YS0W/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_...

As for nipping S/S, I don't use the SM nippers. I cut all the frets to the normal length. Then, because the frets are stainless, I clamp them between the jaws of my small nut vise bottom side up. It takes about 6-8 seconds per end with a fiber-reinforced cutting wheel on the Dremel to take the tang down. I don't pad the jaws; sometimes I use the "corner" of the jaws to hold the fret such that one end protrudes from the top of the jaws and the other from the side.

Next step is to take the fret family out for a day at the belt sander. I sand the "points" on the fret ends down, so they are shorter (less to file down) and somewhere near the desired final angle. This step takes about 5 minutes. I do it with N/S wire most all the time, too.

[tadej bratkovic]

I am using Jescar's FW57110-S the chunkiest of them all. My nippers are the cheapest construction wire nippers/nail pullers I get in a local HW store for 2.99. I never grind them completely flush, I always leave a little of the V on each side and this helps keeping them sharp for a lot longer.

It doesn't chip or ding the jaws, at least not on mines, but after cutting ten frets I could feel they don't go as smooth as before. IMHO fretwire is probably the most odd-profile piece of wire you will ever cut with hand nippers so there's always a bit of a struggle.

[Paul Verticchio]

That is a very 'industrial' fret bender Tadej.

After the Apocalypse, there will remain only cockroaches and your fret bender.

Very nice job, man.  Kudos. :-)

[tadej bratkovic]

I decided to get an HSS roller turned because SS wire would most probably chip and ding a brass or alu one. If there's a chance I always over-engineer things. And I wanted them to last a lifetime.

I strive to be the best around with what I do, knowing and believing in your tools makes things so much easier. I like SM stuff very much, but we all know they are ridiculously over-priced and quality of some stuff suffers a lot. I look for the design, then over-kill it completely :) not bad for a language professor converting into guitar repairs, right? :) next project will probably be the ultimate vice because I wanted one of those for quite some time. :)

I just hope cockroaches will keep the lutherie/repair tradition alive! :)

[Hesh Breakstone]

Sure not bad for a language prof also trained for Lutherie.

But not good also for an MBA to not understand in advance that Stew-Mac is a real gem of a Lutherie supplier for all of us and I for one am very glad that we have Stew-Mac.

Business folks know that pricing is a function of supply and demand and when you add a few other tidbits in there such as cost to bring a product to market, market size (a huge factor for serving Luthiers), and attempt to balance these factors with a desire to provide real "value" meaning bang for the buck I think that Stew-Mac is a fantastic company!!!

So when is the last time that any of us attempted to engineer, source, manufacture, and bring to market a tool or tools that may have an entire market over a decade of 200 units?  How do you price such an item, determine the "opportunity cost" of not producing something else with limited working capital while all the while sticking to a notion of what's "critical to quality" for Stew-Mac is superb customer service too?

Stew-Mac does great at what they do and as with most things if any of us were in their shoes I seriously doubt that we could provide more bang for the buck over time with exceptional customer service as Stew-Mac.

Don't get me wrong, a full suite of Stew-Mac stuff does not the Luthier make by any means.  Many if not half of my tools are repurposed something else or something that I make or made because I can't buy what I really wanted.  But.... what's it going to cost me, or you, to make one, single, diamond encrusted, not to be confused with Zappa's lesser zircon encrusted... fret crowning file?  Will the opportunity cost of making your own fret file cost you more than purchasing one from Stew-Mac?

I understand it's fun to bash companies and complain about lousy service when it happens.  But for me I believe, personally... that as one who has no problem complaining when warranted that I also have a "duty" to provide thanks and praise when I receive exceptional service and certainly when this exceptional service has been provided to me every single time with likely over 100 orders over time from one company and for me this company is Stew-Mac.

Not lecturing you or anyone else here - just providing a different, positive view - mine.

[William F.Eden]

A--------------men to STU MAC. I don't know what I would have done with out them over the years. Bill...

[tadej bratkovic]

I was not trying to discredit SM, I was just giving my subjective opinion about them. It's not at all about opportunity costs, AFAIK Dan Erlewine is the leading expert for SM and he has a machine shop of his own. I can clearly remember him mentioning SM has their own machine shop too from one of their videos.

There's no argument about pricing speciality tools, but 400 for a neck jig or 80 for a leveling beam is just too much. I made both at 20% of their price. Got SS beams from HW store and got them ground flat at my local automotive machine shop. Put together a similar neck jig than Dan's, reinforced it and bought Mitutoyo dials and paid less than a 100 in total.

Most  of my speciality tools are from SM and LMII. I didn't mean to bash them. I am most thankful for their designs, but then again I remember Dan encouraging viewers and luthiers to make their own stuff if they can. When Dan came up with the brace glue applicator he clearly explained how he came up with an idea, explaining people the DIY route.

I never had a bad service with them so to speak, but when I paid the 3in1 file I expected things to be order for that amount of money, not that the shaft was corroded and the handle was falling off and to make matters worse, the burr grove is milled off-center. While a quality tool enables you to start working right out of the box, I had to clean and glue the thing back together. Ergo, this means time AND money wasted.

Repairing guitars is creativity to me, there are no repair manuals for what we do. Whenever I make my own tools or design them, I hone my creativity and skills. And from my perspective, buying anything from SM involves import taxes and duties, plus a pricey international shipping. So whenever I place an order I have to be dead serious about using that stuff.

Let's not go off-topic, please...

[William F.Eden]

Good luck with your S.S frets Tadej. Bill............

[Hesh Breakstone]

Not so fast there Bub.... :)  Please note smiley face Tadej my friend.

You can't argue your position and when finished attempt to dictate what happens next by endeavoring to stiffel a different point of view.  After all I'm not Edith Bunker and you're not Archie!

Do you understand the term "opportunity cost?"  If not the term refers to the cost of doing one thing when one may have the opportunity to do other things.  An example would be me and my own work.  My shop charges in the neighborhood of $80 an hour for our skilled efforts.  If something takes me four hours to do when I could be working on guitars, and I always can since we are busy as hell...., the opportunity cost of not working on guitars to say make a tool or jig for four hours costs me $320 in missed opportunity to do billable hours.

I made my own leveling beams too.  The raw stock costs only a few bucks.  But the work with bluing on a certified surface plate took me several hours to true the beam up.  There is also the cost of the certified surface plate too amortized over it's life at the percentage cost of my beam leveling effort.  All up I suspect that making my own beam cost me close to $400....  I also suspect that your's cost far more than you may realize or have posted initially here too if you did not factor in the "opportunity cost."

It's all well and good to want to make our own stuff, I do this frequently too especially when I can't purchase exactly what I want how I want it.  But let's be honest or smart or better yet both and also factor in ALL associated costs.  That's what I do and when and if I debate the worthiness of a supplier over making our own stuff things such as opportunity cost, time to source materials, shipping, gas in my car, time to make the thing, etc have to be accounted for...

Your situation is different admittedly than mine.  My stuff from Stew Mac is at my door step less than 24 hours from when I ordered it if I order late in the afternoon.  This is with Stew-Mac's lowest cost shipping alternative.  Can't beat that in my book!

Regarding your claim that something that you received was substandard did you contact Stew-Mac and advise them of same?  If not it's on you bro and I really don't see that you have a right to diss them on-line when you yourself may not have communicated your dissatisfaction with Stew-Mac.  If you did communicate that you were not happy with what you received I am SURE that Stew-Mac would have replaced it, offered a refund, and in your case likely not required the first tool back either. 

It's a nearly impossible task for a company such as Stew-Mac to price things for the one-time hobby builder/tech AND provide the quality necessary for the die-hard, working Luthiers who may use a fret file several hundred times (Including with stainless since you want to get back on topic...).  Nonetheless they seem to do just this most of the time and come pretty close the rest of the time.

Sure you can buy from some eBay seller but my own experiences have been poor at best and it's not a path that I wish to go OR subject my customers to the idea that I may be using substandard tools on their instrument.

Regarding import taxes, duty, taxes etc. there was a hit TV show in the states called the Sopranos.  In this great show about your average New Jersey middle class folks.... :) the leader of the mob family, Tony has a Mom who is fond of saying "Oh poor You...." in a less than sincere manner.  I won't say this to you my friend but it went through my head when I considered that you have to pay customs duties, import taxes and likely more taxes on the taxes....  

Stateside Luthiers don't have to deal with any of this - just great value in the products that Stew-Mac offers, fast shipping, a no questions asked return policy, and a super solid company that again I am very glad that we have as a very valued supplier!

I'm not affiliated with Stew-Mac in any way.  Just again offering a different point of view.

Now if you would like to further this discussion with me or anyone else please do!  It's not my right to express and opinion without knowing in advance that it's only fair to never, never, never attempt to obstruct contrary points of view.  Having lived in other places in the world myself I know that this "openness and fairness" to all points of view is not a uniquely American custom either.

It could be that Stew-Mac does not work well for you where you are - understood.  But they work GREAT for me where I am and to celebrate I am going on-line this week and ordering a Stop Tailpiece Wrench that our dear friend Paul conceptualized and prototyped and then I'm going to ask Paul if I can send it to him, with a Sharpie, and request that he sign it for me so that I can cherish it for the rest of my days!

[tadej bratkovic]

Hesh, I really respect your opinion here and I can understand your sutation, but it seems I have unintentionally killed my thread with a comment about Stew-Mac.

I don't have time nor patience to continue this debate I need to finish the guitar after all, all I can say about them is that the prices of stuff are very similar to one-off items. For the money they charge I can get every single piece custom made for that money and I can decide on what materials I want to be used.

Sorry, I am not going any deeper with this, the thread is now dead with me.

Just to return to the subject for the last time: I noticed gunstuck oil I use for fingerboards makes a nice glue masking barrier (just like Dan uses pastewax etc) and cleanup is a breeze. I got my fret ends flush, made a slight bevel (less radical than factory), all I need to do now is give it a round-over just like Fender does, level, crown, dress, bevel the ends... and play, you all know the drill.

Thanks everybody for ideas, suggestions and experience, SS wire is not at all a boogie man. Hard on your tools? Yes, nippers maybe, but that thing files down just like any other steel I have filed and it goes really fast and no chance of embedding the chips into the fret, like with NS. I am more curious into how some guys you read about on the internet use their files.

It is becoming my favorite stuff, but I don't think I'll offer this to other people, except if that's what they originally want.

Thanks! Have fun, guys.

[Paul Verticchio]

"So when is the last time that any of us attempted to engineer, source, manufacture, and bring to market a tool or tools that may have an entire market over a decade of 200 units?  How do you price such an item, determine the "opportunity cost" of not producing something else with limited working capital while all the while sticking to a notion of what's "critical to quality" for Stew-Mac is superb customer service too?"

Hesh,

Well over a decade ago, I had an idea for an very specialized tool.  After doing the background research for manufacturing and distribution issues, I GAVE Stew-Mac the idea and design and wished them luck. My prototype for the product cost me 5 times (in time & material) what they charge for the product. Although I've never asked them, I doubt if it's cracked the 200 in 10 years mark.

Here's the tool: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Bridges/Tune-o-...

My tool is the Stop Tailpiece Wrench (they never did spell my last name correctly, but they could be right & the folks at Ellis Island, wrong).

I gave them the rights to it as: I couldn't manufacture it at a reasonable price point, nor did I wish to become involved with that business and ... it was more important [to me] to get the tool out there for folks to use.

Dan & Don were VERY generous and compensated [gifted] me with several items I couldn't afford.

As far as their prices and product quality: I think we have to look at their wares and put them in context with how we do business.  A 'repair/tech' shop has the time & resources to make several of the items for themselves. "Production" shops may find the prices cheaper (especially when buying in quantities) than using their on-site resources to make the tools.  Large scale producers likely find their prices "a steal". You have to add-in those perspectives as well as them being a one-stop-shop.

I (we all) can ID their supply sources (Hiroshima files, Hosco, Gotoh, etc) and attempt to source at lesser prices, but I've found a single product source (S-M) along with a single shipping charge, is more economically feasible for the individual luthier or small shop.

As far as international surcharges are concerned, the same 'criticisms' can be directed toward Dick-Herdum tools.  I'd love to acquire some but....talk about meaty prices!!!!  Euro-pricing at the domestic level may be much less.

Unfortunately, no supplier sells 'humility& appreciation' by the pound. It could be the magical component to counter the devolution of this thread.

Summary: Stew-Mac, in my book, is a premier U.S. resource/supplier.

Thanks again Hesh for your post and the priceless insight we garner from your posts,

Paul :-)

[Hesh Breakstone]

Paul my friend if you have the time.... being as long winded as I can be that is... please read above and let me know if this works for you?

Thanks!