Separating Neck Joint

[Brian T. Williams]

Hi,

I have recently acquired a St. Blues bass that has a typical "Fender Precision" 4 screw bolt on neck, type joint.

The previous owner has also glued in the neck using (I am informed), white waterproof/outdoor type PVA glue.

I would like to reset the neck to obtain the correct string height as currently, short of filing the bridge saddles there is no adjustment left. My "luthierie" experience only extends as far as fret dressing and I have never tried to separate any type of guitar fixed joint before.

Is this possible to separate this joint and if so, how do I go about it?

Cheers............Brian

[Mark Pollock]

Pictures? Are the screws out?

The pictures I can see on the internet show that the pickguard almost touches the base of the neck. With the pickguard off, I suspect you could find a place to let a little steam in to loosen the joint, or to drill a hole to force some steam in.

Oh yeah - you also have a nice steel plate over another access area - you can also drill a hole that would be covered by the bolt-plate and force steam in there, while pushing in a pallette knife from the back. You can also place long screws or nails through the bolt holes (but not actually inserted into the neck) to lightly tap with a hammer as you heat the mess up, until it lets loose.

Problem is, there are really four glue surfaces there, good luck with that. Whatever you do, set yourself up mentally for the process to take hours. Repeat this as a mantra, so that you don't get pissed off after five minutes and bust the whole pocket up. :)

[Brian T. Williams]

Cheers Mark, thanks for taking the time to help.

I didn't post pictures because I thought that as it was a "standard" type of neck joint, images would be unnecessary but I will if you think it might help.

I gather from what you say. that PVA glue can be "undone" in a similar way to traditional hide glue, is it just a case of getting the steam into the joint??

Is a kettle and plastic tube the best way, not having any specialist luthier tools?? 

[Andrew]

A 'kettle and plastic tube' would be a very basic description of what you need. The steam needs to be under pressure to be forced into the glue joint, and most kettles Ive seen dont close up that tight. You would also need to be able to attach the tube to the spout tightly enough that there are no pressure leaks, which could be tricky given the shape of most kettle spouts. Of course it could be done, you just have to be tricky too.

Once you have an adequate steaming rig, the issue will be getting steam to the right place, as there is no cavity between the joint and body as with an acoustic with a dovetail, so it will be tricky to get steam to circulate to a large enough area of the glue surfaces.

I would remove the screws holding the neck, as well as the pickguard/pickups in the area so you have room to work freely. Then make up a steam tube that fits the screw holes in the body tightly, so that the steam can be pushed in without just 'bouncing' right back out. Thin knives warmed to 200 f might help too, but theres a risk of burning or melting the finish in an obvious kinda way.

Of course theres the possibility that there was finish on the neck tenon and cavity being that this is a bolt on, so theres a chance that the glue wont put up a huge fight, since it wouldnt make as good a mechanical bond with finish under it. If I had it in my hands, and theres enough surface area projecting above the body of the guitar, id make a wood block to match the shape well, hold er there good n give it a few sharp taps with my little handplane mallet (of course theres some discretion necessary) just to see what happens before I got steaming away.

Really though, the first thing you need to ask yourself is whether this is a task that you have enough experience to deal with. It might be more worth your while to take this to someone who does this stuff regularly.

[Kerry Krishna]

 You need to go to a thrift store and get an old  cappuccino  machine,   and some plastic rubber tubing that you can clamp onto that,and some kind of a steam needle too. The steam needle can be as simple as an old arial off of a radio set. Get two screw clamps ( I forget what they are called) from the hardware store. This is not going to be an easy job either, just so you know. I know a guy who did not ask for help with this same problem... He took the bridge off,got out his router, and took a bit off the wood underneath instead of this job you are thinking of doing. If this is a low price bass, I would say that the routing would be easier.  

[Brian T. Williams]

Thanks for the help so far; from what I can deduce, this seems to be a job that is too involved for me to undertake.

Is there any reason (as I intimated in the original post), that I should not take some material off the bottom edge of the 1st & 2nd bridge saddles, which would then give me enough adjustment to obtain the correct string height that I'm aiming at.

This would mean that the bottom edge of  bridge saddles 1 & 2 would then be resting flat on the bridge plate, however, I would then have enough adjustment to lift the saddles slightly; and to sit them on their two grub screws if that is the correct setup.

Would this be an acceptable solution to the problem? (It seems to be a similar fix to Kerry's body routing comment).

[Andrew]

As long as replacement saddles are available that seems pretty reasonable to me, provided you dont need to remove too much material.

[Thomas James]

How is this glued? I have seen Fender joints with glue in the bottom in what I assume was an effort to settle neck movement. If the neck is finished, the bond may not be that strong? You may get away with simply removing the screws and then wiggle it free.

[Kerry Krishna]

[Richard Bales]

I used to do a lot of work restoring antique furniture.  And restoring meant fixing other people's repairs that were done badly and often with PVA glues.  Steaming was not always possible, and in such circumstances I would wick some ammonia water into the joint.  You can't be in a hurry though - It would sometimes take hours and multiple applications of the ammonia water to do the trick.  And you have to be sure to let the wood thoroughly dry afterwards as the water will tend to swell the wood. 

This is not my preferred method of softening a glue joint.  But it is an alternative when other methods are not feasible.

And don't use ammonia water with detergents, only the clear stuff.  The contamination from the detergents can be problematic.

[Andrew]

Interesting. Where do you get the clear ammonia? Is it more concentrated than the jugs at the grocery store? Whats your ratio of ammonia to water?

[Richard Bales]

I use the jugs from the grocery store and I use it undiluted.  Adds a nice bit of colour to some woods too.

[Mark Fogleman]

I use a vinegar gel (Degoo Glue Remover...may be Deglue Goo Remover...you'll be in the ballpark) to strip old PVA type glue from joints and breaks once you get the joint apart.  A little goes a long way and so far no adverse effect on surrounding finish.  A paper towel or cotton balls soaked in white vinegar could also be used.