1930's Gibson L00 bridge plate replacement

[John]

I'm replacing the bridge plate on this guitar. The bridge is off. The top was bellied and it turns out the bridge plate was loose and came out with very little persuasion. I want to replace it with something a little bigger or thicker. What do you think?

Sorry I can't post pics.

[Paul Hostetter]

I never understand why some people conduct two parallel threads on the same subject. 

[Ned Knepp]

I think this one probably should have been a new thread but sometime people that are new are not sure what the specific forum traditions are. Some places, the residents would get upset if they felt like someone started "another thread about L 00 "was started. Other sites, like this one, tend to like new threads, particularly if the existing threads are old. Until a new member learns how a forum works it can be a crap shoot. 

 Posting about the same instrument/topic on two threads just confuses everything now matter what. 

 

Gerry, if you read this, next time don't worry about starting a new thread. Most of us would prefer it to pulling old threads back to the top to present a new instrument/problem. 

[John]

I have to throw this in, I have seen custom guitars from Gibson and production line guitars that don't exist according to the experts. I have seen Gibsons that have the words adjustable bridge stamped on the inside but clearly have an original nonadjustable bridge. I think the guy with the guitar on his bench should get some respect, it's hard to be an expert based on a picture. 

The thing to remember when it comes to Gibson is that there is no never, there are guitars where necks were made ten years before the body out there. The dream guitar that uncle Bob special ordered custom made or the guitar the janitor made on his lunches in Kalamazoo. And flame maple gold tops.

Joe Lado once said to me "you learn and you learn all your life, and then you die stupid."

[Russell Vance]

John, I'm having a "so what"  moment here: 

As I said - anything is possible - but we are not here to debate whether big-foot exists or whether some janitor made a Gibson back in the 1930's or who is wrong and who is right - we are here to advise on the most probably answers, best course of action and get on with fixing guitars.  

I also don't know who Joe Lado is but if he or anyone intends to die stupid, that's` their right.  But it's not mandatory.

Regards,

Rusty.

[Cal Maier]

Rusty, Joe Lado AKA Joe Kovacic, Manufactured Lado Guitars in Ontario,Canada during the seventies and eighties, just to add to the general confusion of this thread. lol

I'm not sure why Gerald has taken so much offense to most of the opinions he's received here but it's obvious he came here seeking information to confirm or deny the authenticity of his L-00's oversized bridge. It appears that the general consensus is, no one who has contributed an opinion has ever seen one of these instruments with that size or type of bridge installed on it by Gibs*n. This forum is frequented by Guitar repair people and those interested in guitar repair, this may include makers, collectors, players, etc. The comments have been with regards to an image provided by Gerald showing a large crudely made bridge with an oversized saddle on a sunburst finished guitar top, in his latest post Gerald says that the bridge in question definitely was a replacement ( that's what we were saying ), but apparently there is no evidence of another proper sized bridge having been on the guitar. Fair enough, without a photo or access to close inspection no one can dispute that statement, we can only speculate.

I'm not sure how these old threads keep getting resurrected but it can be a bit confusing to forum members, as this topic appears at the bottom of two old discussions concerning L-00 guitars and bridges. I'm guessing it's due to the search engine being utilized and then new posts tacked on after the thread has been long dead. I'm not a computer guy, but if there is someone in the forum that could figure a way of allowing the originators of a topic to close the thread after it is finished.

Cheers,

Cal

PS. Sorry you took offence at the results Gerald, no one here meant to belittle you or offend you. We gave our honest opinions to your questions.

[John]

Joe Lado is the most prolific builder I've ever met. He built five to ten instruments a week with a skeleton crew for years, he was also in the Guinness book of records for building the largest working guitar in the world. It's in one of the Hard Rock cafes now. The quote from him is his take on humility and how we learn all our lives to realize there's still so much we don't know.

Which is why after years of experience working on countless vintage guitars I don't consider myself an expert and take with a grain of salt anyone who does. 

I think this thread has gone off the rails and I sure hope none of my customers come here looking for info. It seems they could be told they're rude and I don't know what I'm talking about... according to the forum experts...based on one picture. 

Russell, you need to put the thesaurus down and work on nuance.

[John]

The website of the luthier in question

http://www.getrhythm.ca

He's got skills.

[Ned Knepp]

Not to stir the pot but because I'm truly curious, John, would you consider a vintage guitar in very good condition that has a unique, undocumented bridge design worth more than the same guitar with the bridge design that is clearly documented and expected?

I'm asking because it appears to me that Gerald's biggest concern is the resale value of the guitar and I get the feeling that he was hoping to get support for the idea that this is a unique/rare version which might possibly have a higher resale value.

On another note, I'm not sure I understand how people giving their honest opinions, based on their experience could damage Gerald's repairman's reputation. I'm aware that his reported observation have been referenced as possibly mistaken but this was in response to Gerald's continued insistence that every opinion that doesn't agree is questionable. I also don't see anyone at all even insinuating that he's not a good repairman because they don't think the bridge is original. What I DO see are opinions that are not what Gerald, clearly, hoped for with the result that their knowledge and experience is being questioned, to which they respond that, given the general consensuses here, it is possible his repairman was mistaken. ( Frankly, without the repairman in question's direct input to the forum, it's hard to know what he actually thinks so ALL "opinions" of his thinking are guesswork.) 

BTW, I completely agree that Gibson has been pretty flaky in standardization of their instruments and it's not all that rare to see one that differs from the "norm".  That's pretty well accepted by people that spend much time studying the brand. The issue in this case is that the non-conforming part in question is something that is VERY often changed in the course of keeping old instrument functional, often with the original part replaced with whatever was available. Proving that this is an original bridge requires documentation and it falls to the person making the claim to present it. Gerald asked for opinions and got them. Right now, it seems pretty clear to me that he wanted supporting opinions, not real opinions.

[Gerald Cummings]

Thanks for your help guys & gals, but it is not the end of the world. It may or may not have been the original bridge on this L00. From what most of these experienced luthiers think, it is not the original bridge. The thing played and sounded just fine before I got it looked at. It'll play even better when it's done. that's all that really matters to me, as it wasn't really an investment per se. Thank you all for your insight, and Happy Holidays to you all.

[Russell Vance]

John,

To enlighten you:

I don't own a thesaurus.

The use of "nuance"  is inappropriate to this situation as technical advice requires clarity of though and little room for subjective interpretation.

Don't be afraid or cynical regards "experts" ...it just means a person who is knowledgeable about or skillful in a particular area.   They are necessary for advancement and skill enhancement and we see a lot of them in the profession(s). I often seek and take their advice.

Your customers shouldn't come here "looking for information", they should come to you and you should come here (that's what this forum is about) seeking expert and amateur advice alike to assist you with delivering better repair outcomes.   The research the forum members did for the question at hand was more than just viewing "one picture" so have some respect for the experts who took the time to do the heavy lifting on this one.

Finally, to clear up your difficulty with my approach to Joe Lado's philosophy:

I won't be adopting the notion that to be humble one must accept the prospect of dying stupid, .....It's not axiomatic - it's just something that someone said that got repeated.

Regards,
Rusty. 

[onewent]

Couple of quick points of clarification from my view:  I'd not been offended or put-off by Gerald's adherence to his luthier's opinion on the bridge in question.  Don't know if others were.   I've read forums for years and know how things can slide downhill quickly, but I felt things were going on in a respectful manner.  If I feel things get personal, I just don't respond.

Second, addressing the old thread resurrection question raised, Gerald actually posted his bridge info last Wed according to the time/date of his post, and I responded with what I know to be true of 30s Gibsons.  

In the big picture of things, a guitar owner can do as he wishes with alterations, and even make bad choices in doing so...he owns it.  And when it comes to 'expert' opinions, I've seen two camps form many times over things like this, including some of the most respected in their field at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Drilling down to the relevance of all this to Frank's forum, I'm of the opinion that this info will be here a long, long time (web info in general) and wouldn't want readers down the road left with misinformation on topics that clearly have a near definitive answer, like the 30s L-00 oversize 'original'  bridge.  Could it be original, yes, is it likely, no, but I'll be the first to post a photo here if and when I see one!

As the stiff upper lip saying goes:  Stay calm and luthier on!   

Tom

[Gerald Cummings]

Amen to that Tom...it's Gerry by the way...Gerald sounds so grandfatherish. By the way, my luthier still believes that no other sized bridge was ever on this guitar. He's confused as much as the folks who beg to differ. I only asked, and I'm sincerely sorry if I appeared to not believe you all. I do not disagree with anyone, simply because I do not know for sure. In a way, I suppose, I wanted someone to say, "Yes Gerry, Gibson did at times put different hardware on their products, and that belly bridge very well could have been the type of bridge that was originally put on that guitar in Kalamazoo Michigan U.S.A. in 193?. Sincerely, Mr. Gibson hisownself.", maybe Santa Claws will grant me this wish...??? But it don't matter really. HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL PEOPLE.