Makings Bends Possible: Flatten Fret Radius??

[Pete Andreev]

I have a '62 Road Worn Strat that I really love. I'm setting it up after having it on a stand for a few months and I'm having an issue. The action is nice and low, neck is straight, everything feels perfect...but forget about bending on strings 1 and 2 up past the 12th fret cause they choke out.

These guitars have a 7.25" radius so obviously that isn't helping. If I raise the action on those strings high enough, I can get the bends happening but I really love having low action...plus it just feels awkward to have the 1st and 2nd strings raised up and out of the typical curved shape. What bothers me is that I had this thing setup previously and I remember the action being pretty low and having no bending issues at all.

I did a little research and I'm seeing some people talking about creating a sort of "false" radius by leveling the frets out to a flatter radius, only on the higher frets of course. Anybody have any experience doing this? And is there a method I can try before going to this fret job approach?

[Thomas James]

The method to use is the flatter radius on the frets in the upper register. It's not false, but rather a true solution to a common problem on 7.25" radius necks in need of bending notes with low action.

[Pete Andreev]

Any good tutorials on how to do this?

[Hesh Breakstone]

Hi ya Pete:  Often the limiting factor preventing getting action as low as we might like on Fender and Fender style bolt-on necks are the frets over the body after the 12th.  We commonly see a ski-ramp of sorts starting over the body and the solution to this is simply a decent fret dress where fall-away is induced after the 12th taking these frets lower progressively until the last fret is the lowest.  I like to see perhaps .010" of fall away from the fret plane of the 1st through the 12th with the fall-away measured at the last but any degree of fall-away is better than the ski-ramp.

We do this all of the time and it's standard fare for our fret dresses.  We also use narrow leveling beams precision flattened on certified surface plates.  A longer one that spans frets 1 through 12 and a shorter one for frets 12 through the last.  A piece of masking tape is placed on the end of the short beam and rides on the crown of the 12th so no material is removed from the 12th but the material removal is gently sloped toward the last.

We also trace the string paths with the leveling beam and this results in a compound radius which also helps with lower action.

It works very well and completely eliminates the ski-ramp issue.

By the way the ski-ramp thing seems to develop over time too which would explain why this guitar did not used to have the issue.

My personal American strat also had a ski-ramp fresh from the f*ctory so it was dressed out before it was ever played.

[Pete Andreev]

All of this sounds good. My tech estimated that creating a flatter radius on those upper register frets would run around $350 plus labor...

That's why I'm looking to do this myself. How complex of a job is this?

[Thomas James]

Plus labor? What's does the $350 cover? If the guitar plays well except for choking bent notes above fret twelve on the treble strings; then only that section of the fretboard can be re-dressed and feathered into the lower frets. This is takes about a half an hour for me. I would get second opinion.

[Paul Verticchio]

I agree, Tom. For the required results, that is simply highway robbery.

The $350 might be reasonable if the tech approached the issue as a refret AND compounds the radius of the FB before installing new frets. I guess it would also factor in a setup. What concerns me is that the price quoted doesn't include labor!!!!  I mean, even employing several different grades of abrasives, you're talking about $10 tops in materials.

Pete should double check with his tech to get a better understanding of what the tech is planning to do. If it's exactly what Hesh and others have described, I'd dump that tech like a hot potato OR let him know that he's been "outted" by a group of pro's who truly understand the trade and GOOD & FAIR business practices.

Pete, through past posts, has proven himself to be a good guy with a desire to learn the craft. I'm sorry to hear there are techs out there who take advantage in situations where the customer simply isn't knowledgeable about options & solutions. Now that he has the real deal info, his search for another tech should be easy.

Pete: after reviewing your previous posts, I'm not confident that your skills are at a level where a DIY solution should be attempted. It's up to you, but this work is not Frets 101 and the risk of failure with permanent cosmetic issues and/or the need for a partial refret is all too possible. However, if you choose to undertake the job, please practice on SEVERAL yard sale specials before addressing the Strat.

In closing: once the work is completed, you'll be amazed by the playing comfort afforded by the described procedure. It's going to be good :)

[Todd Reich]

I have to agree with Thomas here. Unless you're asking the guy to pull the frets, radius the fingerboard itself, and then refret the newly-compund radiused fingerboard, it shouldn't cost very much. If a technician quoted me a price to add a compound radius to the upper frets that significantly exceeds the price he charges for a partial level/dress, that would give me pause. It's really not much more work than leveling out a hump in the pocket, you just also give the upper frets a bit of a slight "leveling" width-wise during the process.

In fact, I'd argue that, without using radiused leveling blocks, it's more difficult to level and crown a guitar WITHOUT flattening the radius over the pocket than it is to maintain a perfectly cylindrical radius freehand. It's kind of the motion the arm wants to take as you rotate it as in the classic leveling motion.

It's a relatively simple job, particularly if you only want to compound radius the frets (and aren't interested in pulling the frets and installing a compound radius into the fingerboard itself). There's really not much to it, and anyone experienced with fret leveling can fudge the radius around by hand during the leveling process if they're using a flat block/file. An easy way is to MILDLY kick the back of the file/block out away from the fingerboard into a mild diagonal angle relative to the centerline of the neck as you level the area whose radius you want to flatten. Generally, while leveling for a standard cylindrical radius, you make straight passes parallel to the centerline of the neck to remove narrow swaths of material, and tilting the file/block in the manner I mention slightly increases the width of your cut, which gives you a more "equaling" cut between the frets, width-wise, if that makes any sense. A glib, but easy-to-visualize differentiation is "If leveling for a cylindrical ["vintage"] radius, make leveling passes parallel to the centerline of the neck. If leveling for a compound radius, make leveling passes that follow the natural lie of the strings." This is essentially what Hesh mentioned, as far as tracing the path of the strings. If I want to nail a specific radius, I may use two different radius sanding blocks at either end of the neck, and then blend the radii together by hand with a flat block or file. That's overkill, though, if all you're trying to do is slightly open up the radius to eliminate choked bends.

Hope this helps!

[Hesh Breakstone]

Took in several fret dresses and refrets today.

Although markets vary and so too do prices for our best fret dress which includes a complete set-up we charge $195....  This of course includes all of our consumables, labor, everything but new strings.

So yeah that seems high to me and I also don't like the thing being called "flattening out the radius" because although with our process this happens a bit it's not the major thing that is happening with any precision fret dress and fall-away inducement.

For a few bucks more we would do a complete refret and set-up also including all parts but strings....

By the way we don't accept shipped in work so I am not at all mentioning any of this in an effort to get business.  We don't need any more business thank you I'm just letting you know that this price seems very, very high to me.

I also as always completely agree with Paul regarding how difficult the process is.  It took me several years personally to learn to do very high quality fret dressing and I got into this with a baptism by fire too with lots of opportunities to learn and practice.  There is much more too it as well including reading the neck as-is, evaluating the effectiveness of the truss rod(s) and where they move thing, and correcting relief so that we have more where we want it and less where we don't want it.

It's complicated!

I wanted to add that our process will never address any region of the fret plane in isolation from the rest of the fret plane.  We want to see the frets as the strings do and as such we dress and level frets seeing them as a system and never, never individuals.

Had a guy with two $75,000 guitars who we had done some work for prior ask me to address one or two high frets and nothing else.  I explained the process, he indicated that he understood the explanation and then told me that he did not want me to do it our way and would bring his little leveling stone with him for us to use.  I pushed-back and indicated that's not how we work.  He asked me if I was willing to lose the business over not doing it his way.  I indicated that I most certainly am willing to lose business over it because ultimately my name is on the work that I do and as such I have to only use methods that I know personally work very well from prior experience.

He hung up one me..... 

Next!  :)

[Howard Klepper]

This is bread and butter fretwork for electric guitars.  It involves both an increase in radius (flattening) at the high frets, and some overall dropoff.  The cost should be no more than a level, crown, and polish.  I agree with those who have recommended that you have a good tech do it.

[Pete Andreev]

Thanks for all of the great info guys.

I'm convinced that my tech was quoting that price thinking that he was going to address the entire neck, not just the problem area. I've been using him for several years and he's always given me very fair prices. I'm pretty confident a few of you would sing his praises and back me up if I posted his name.

Paul, thanks for looking into this and giving your honest opinion. I agree...I know I'm not skilled enough in the fret area of guitar tech world. I'm kind of amazed at the whole notion of a 7.25" fretboard radius, especially because it was the standard used on most vintage Fenders. I don't know about you guys but I've never, ever picked up a guitar and noticed any extra added comfort from a smaller radius. The comfort/bending ability trade off is severely unbalanced if you ask me.


While I have you guys here, I'd like to get something cleared up. As both a blues/Strat and jazz/archtop player, I had always noticed how Strats and Teles tended to have smaller fretboard radii and archtops had larger radii. Because of nothing but this observation, I just naturally assumed that smaller radii meant easier bends and vice versa...which is directly incorrect. So my question is...

Why do archtops and jazz boxes tend to have bend-welcoming flatter radii, while solidbodies and blues/rock oriented guitars are often given small radii? Obviously the stylistic playing tendencies of the genres would make you think switching these two specs is the logical choice...

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Pete.

I’ll just address the FB radius questions as they apply ONLY to electric guitars.

Historically, Gibson’s FB’s GENERALLY have a 12” radius and a 24.75” scale length.

Fender’s (Strats & Tele’s) have 7.25”, 9,5”, and 10” radii depending on the model and a 25.5” scale length. A few of their more modern series guitars have a 12” radius. It depends on the model. In your case, you have a ’62 reissue and 7.25” was the radius used at that time. In 1962, very few, if any, players were bending strings more than ½ step, so back then, it wasn’t a performance issue.

Only an FYI: “Shredder” guitars (Kramer, Jackson, Ibanez....etc) have from 16”-20” radii to facilitate ultra low action and bends.

Some of the more progressive builders offer necks with 9”-16” compound radius necks.

You are correct in observing that a flatter radius (12”-16”) will facilitate choke free bends and that smaller radii (7.25”-10”) will cause choked bends IF the 12th fret action measurements are the same on both instruments.

Many players of Fender style instruments (ESPECIALLY Blues players) with a vintage radius have their actions at the 12th fret at 1/8” to 1/4” expressly to prevent choked bends. IMO, a higher action IMPROVES the response of those guitars. Many working pro’s like a higher action.

The bottom line is: when choosing a guitar, the FB radius and scale length are extremely important considerations. I’ve found wonderful guitars that I considered for purchase, but either the radius or scale length was not within my personally required spec’s. Regardless of how good a guitar looks or how great it sounds, if I can’t enjoy it to the fullest, it’s a deal breaker.

I could recommend that you consider an aftermarket replacement neck with a 12” radius. They’re available from Warmoth and other supply houses. Many houses let you choose the radius (including a compound radius), the contour of the neck’s back as well as FB material, fret size and inlays. I hesitate to do so as it sounds as if you’re otherwise pleased with the neck’s spec’s and finding ‘something exactly or a lot like it’ may not be possible. But, it is an option to consider.

One other thing: I’m 100000% with Hesh in the need for addressing the entire FB and ALL frets when doing a level, recrown & polish. I don’t subscribe to the fret rocker (or roller bars etc.) method of spot dressing. The neck is part of a system and MUST be addressed as such. That’s a subject that’s been discussed to death on the forum and there is no consensus. I just know what works for me and satisfies my OCD regarding fretwork.

As a matter of fact, all of my ‘newly acquired’ personal guitars get a level, recrown & polish before I even restring them and begin my setup. Again, IMO, all large scale production guitars greatly benefit from that kind of work. Frets are one of the corners that get cut by even the most prestigious makers. I even have a small sign above my bench that says, “Guitars: BUILDERS build them but TECHS perfect them.”

I hope some of that info is helpful. Anyway you look at it, keep enjoying your guitars and especially the MUSIC that come out of them.

Take care, Pete and have a great week :)

[steven gallagher]

Pete,

I have a Tele and a Mustang. IMO, it's easier to play full barre chords with these small radius necks, which is also a common way to comp in blues and rock. Most jazz players comp with 3 or 4-note chords.