peghead crack - do i really need hide glue?

[mark kaye]

i have a friends Gibson ES335 with a peghead crack
i did some reading & hide glue seems to be the recommended solution, but i have no experience with it
i have some very good wood glue from Lee Valley (2002 GF) and was wondering if it would be OK in this situation
this is a fresh break & has never been repaired before

mark

here is a link to the PVA Lee Valley glue
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=45104&cat=1,1...

[Len Biglin]

Hi All , sorry to enter with a question at this late stage , but do you guys mix hide glue & water by weight or just by the end consistency ? Len

[Jim Bancroft]

Do good cooks measure anything? No.

I just add water to the glue granules until I get it nice and thin. If you go by directions you will end up with glue that is too thick. Too thick glue will not penetrate well through a crack and it will gel up before you get the clamps on.

Jim

[Bob Webster]

Hang on, Jim. Let's give full disclosure here. One doesn't just add water to the hide glue granules and immediately get something that one can judge the thickness of.

Most starting point formulations for working hide glue start with a mixture of 1 part glue granules.(in oz. weight) and 2-2.2 parts water (in oz volume) in the glue pot. That slurry of glue granules is allowed to absorb the water at room temperature for about an hour, at which point it has a solid rubbery consistency. The glue pot is then turned on and allowed to come up to temp of ~145degF. At this point the mixture will typically have the consistency of medium to heavy cream. If, in your judgement, the specific application you made the glue for requires a thinner glue, then add water, let it come back up to temp, assess what you have and then add more water, etc.

Bob

[Jim Bancroft]

Bob,
Whatever works for you is fine, I'm not here to argue.
But, what I stated above works great for me and has for at least 20 years.

When you first mix a batch, you don't have to mix the correct water to glue granules and let it sit for an hour.
This my proceedure. I put a tsp. of glue granules in a glass baby food jar, and maybe add about 3 tsp. of hot or warm tap water. Next I take a small sauce pan of water and set the glue container in that, using a gas range, I turn the heat as low as possible, stiring glue mixture, until it's all disolved. I check consistency by rubbing a drop of glue between my fingers. If it still feels slippery it is exactly the way I want it, if it isn't I either add more water or glue.
I don't use a thermometer to check heat either(I did years ago). When the water in the sauce pan starts forming small beads, it is the correct temp.

I have done some building with hot hide glue, but I do more repairs than anything.

Bob, I'm sure your laughing about my explanation, but it works for me. The thin glue even work excellent for gluing bridges. Never had one come loose yet.

I got some of my early hide glue advise from Mike Kemnitzer, builder of Nugget Mandolins.

The main problem people have when they first start using hide glue is they mix it too thick.
Too thick and it gels too quickly, and it won't penetrate deeply into the joint. And of course all parts must be well warmed.

Jim

[Bob Webster]

Jim, I wasn't trying to give you and arguement. My post was in the same vein as Russell Vance's to my "here's how to do it" earlier. As he rightly pointed out, I should have been far more explicit about the procedure and the need for heat BEFORE he tried to glue it up with hide glue, instead of afterward when things went awry. It seemed from his question that Len Biglin didn't have any experience in hide glue and I wanted to make sure, beforehand, that he had some sort of procedure that worked. Of course, yours would work every bit as well but probably should have been your first response to Len.

Cheers,truly,
Bob

[Jim Bancroft]

Bob,
Thanks for the explanation.
I guess I'm a no frills hide glue user, and have never gotten into the technical aspects of it, all I know is what I do works fine for me.
Anyone can quickly learn how to use it with just a few basic pointers.

I've gotten some flac on hide glue use on the UMGF, because of my simplified, no measure, no thermometer approach. I have no problem with people that want to measure, test, and explain every detail of it's use, but I think it probably scares those off that have never used it before.
I like to present a more user friendly approach.
Take Care
Jim

[mark kaye]

I used some microwaved rice warmers to heated the neck up - took at least 1/2 hr for the glue to soften and allow me to open the crack again. I ran some hot water through too and kept it warm again. I thinned out the glue a bit more than last time (i had it running like honey previously) - i used the updside-down iron technique mentioned earlier with a small glass beaker holding the glue. It's all clamped up now. I'll let it set for at least 24 hrs and then see what i've got.

mark

[William F.Eden]

I use Leevalleys 202 on every thing I build you can heat it to get it apart .It is a brown glue when you are done sanding and you don't see any brown you know it is all off and will not spoil your finish. Not so for Tite bond. I just think there are better glues on the market than hide glue today.

[John Cadd]

Lots of good advice here but you can get a lot more control by making a little steamer to reach any glue in a crack.You need a water heater rigged up with a flexible tube and a small nozzle to aim the steam .This can soften dried glue or clean it out and is good for resin pockets too.I have also used thin shavings to pull through a crack and drag fresh glue into the cavity .If the shaving breaks you can leave it in the joint.Not perfect doing that but workable.

[Len Biglin]

Jim & Bob and everyone else , thanks for your input , I was given some granules years back but so far titebond and sometimes epoxy or CA have done ok .One day I must take the time to try the hide glue.Len