Info on proper shape for bridge saddle

[Jack Allen]

Paul, I'm glad you decided to stay!   Thanks all for reading and any info on my buzz issue.  My question is about the shape or "sharpness" for a saddle to be cut at.  I just replaced the stock Corian saddle (stock) on my J-160E Reissue with a Tusq saddle.  My goal was to get more of the vintage sound (like the original ceramic saddles that came on J-160's in 1962).  The Tusq does that job better than the bone or Corian saddle IMHO but created a new issue.  The guitar buzzes like a bee now all up/down the neck with the same 5/64" string height.  I have gone thru the info on Franks help notes to check where the "buzz" is coming from and it seems to be coming from the saddle. 

 

My question is this, and I know there must be variables:

Should the bridge have more of a smooth contact point (more blunt or rounded) with the strings, or a sharper edge contacting the strings?

 

The Corian (stock) is rather blunt-rounded, the Bone sharp cut to a point, and the Tusq midway between the two.  Didn't like the sound of the Bone at all as I'm looking for the early Beatles sound to this guitar.  The Corian DIDN'T Buzz, the Bone just a slight buzz, and the Tusq, unplayable for me with buzz.

 

Thanks for helping me understand what is probably a very BASIC property of a saddle.  I'm just not learned enough to know whether to sharpen or dull the Tusq to get rid of the buzz.

 

Thanks!!!

 

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

 

[William F.Eden]

Jack it sounds to me that you don't have your sadel sharp enof were the strings brack over the top of the sadle .You have to have good clerance under the string as it comes over the sadel back and front. Bill............

[Jack Allen]

Thanks for the info.  I checked my factory "checklist" from Gibson and the guitar came set 6/64" on low E.  I have taken it back to that setting & above and it still has a "sitar" like sound.  I may put back on the factory saddle and test again if it immediately goes away.  This is the "adjustable" style bridge the Gibby's had back in the 50's & 60's.

Not to argue with you Bill, but the stock saddle that didn't buzz has very blunt.  The sharper shaped Tusq is buzzing so that's why I'm confused as I thought, probably incorrectly, that sharper was less buzz maybe.

Jack

[William F.Eden]

Jack maybe you are blaming the wrong side of the sadel .It maybe your problem is with the bottom of it not being flat? Bill................

[Eric Steven Johansen]

Along with the other issues already addressed I'd like to add one more possibility. I've had experience with Gibby adjustable saddles that buzzed where they met the adjuster posts due to a loose fit. The test is to place your finger on the saddle and applying pressure down while plucking the strings. If the buzz goes away the fit to the posts is too loose.

[Paul Verticchio]

Hello Jack.

All the others have given you excellent suggestions to address the saddle issue.  My suggestion will only cover getting that cool axe sounding like it did for The Beatles.

Here goes.... once you get the saddle under control, burnish the heck out of the top of the saddle with a smooth steel rod (like a polished screwdriver shaft).  That will increase the density of the surface at the strings' take-off points and 'kinda' make the string think it's resting on a ceramic surface.

I admit that I've never seen a newer version of these...only the vintage instruments.  I don't know if they came from the factory with bronze or nickle strings.  With that said, to get the Beatle's 'jangle' the guitar has to be strung with electric guitar strings.  I'm not talking about rock & roll strings but a nice 12-56 set with a wound G string, like these: http://www.juststrings.com/ghs-1400.html. 

The nickle strings won't stay bright for more than a couple of hours, but I think it's the secret to capturing that vintage 'kerrrrang' on an acoustic guitar.    Of course, the P-90 in that instrument will love them too.

Give that a try and I bet you'll nail that "I've Just Seen A Face" vibe.

Hope this was helpful,

Paul (-:

[Hesh Breakstone]

Lots of great thinking in this thread!

I have to add one more thing to check and please bear with me because a couple of things that you said gave me a clue to the following:  Did you or anyone else mess with the nut slots?  Improperly cut nut slots can not only cause a sitar sound just like we used to hear from Norah Jones Dad.... but they can also confuse even the best of us into believing that the buzz is coming from the saddle area.... when it's not really the causation.  If the nut slots were not touched this is not the issue.

Saddle shape has some of the very same considerations as a nut slot shape in terms of what a vibrating string will do with an incompatible shape.  When a nut slot is too shallow (not enough break angle) the vibrating wave of the string can lash up and over the break point causing a buzz or that good ole sitar sound.  As such both nut slots and saddle top shapes benefit from having a decent break angle AND a shape where the break point is the highest point immediately tapering off after the break point.

Ervin Somogyi writes a bit about this in his excellent two book set and he also makes a case for having the string in contact with a rounded backside of the saddle too.

Regarding action I concur with Tom and believe that 5/64" on the low e at the 12th depending on the condition, shape, relief, etc of the neck and frets could be an issue.  I typically set guitars up depending on the player and neck issues.... at 4/64ths and 6/64ths for a mid sized or larger acoustic. 

I wanted to add that the differences that you are hearing between the various saddle materials makes me envious of you.  I hear dramatic differences between bone and stinkin... plastic but rarely hear any differences between say bone and tusk.  If anything I prefer bone but that's for another thread....

Although this was rightly brought up already if the saddle bottom or the saddle slot bottom is not flat that can be a problem too.  And I'll add that a saddle can be too tight in the slot too, and too loose as well, and that perfect fit should permit the saddle to be removed without force but leave it with no room for movement in the slot either.  Sometimes it's a difference of one or two swipes on 220 grit in so much as the tolerances, especially with an UST can be that important.

Lastly with these various saddles are you sure that they are all exactly the same dimensions including the radiused top?

[RETROROD]

Great ideas and considerations abound! My thoughts are similar. It has to be the nut or the saddle. The top or the bottom of both.

When making a nut or saddle (or adjusting one).....I always 'visualise' the string break angle on both and try to approximate and soften those angles when filing so that it is a gradual ramp to the 'highest' take-off point of the string from the bridge or nut.

[Ian Barker]

Jack - Paul Hostetter's site has some very clear and helpful diagrams showing ideal contours for saddles: http://www.lutherie.net/saddle_angle.html and nuts : http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html.  Well worth bookmarking!

[Jack Allen]

Thanks for all the great advice & things to check.  Great diagrams on the saddle/nut design too!!  I hadn't mentioned that I had Pyramid Gold Flats (11's)  on the guitar prior to the saddle change to a Tusq.  I reshaped the Tusq. saddle to the rounded backside and then checked the nut per the diagram.  All the buzzing strings are way past 1/2 way point cut into the nut.  My guitar came with .12's and had been setup by Fuller Guitar in TX (where I purchased it).  I tried new Pyramid 11's and same buzzing.  Switched to some GHS Brite-Flats 12's and the problem went away.  I suspect the nut slots were cut down maybe when they set the guitar up.  Don't have a clue WHY it played great after I put the 11's on it until I changed the saddle.  It even buzzed when I went back to the stock saddle now.  I guess it's time to take it to our local Gibson (Martin & Taylor too) warranty station luthier.  I don't feel brave enough to get into a nut replacement on this guitar.  Maybe a cheaper Epiphone I have but not this one yet.

Paul, I like the burnishing idea.  Makes a lot of sense to me to heat & compact the surface of the saddle more! 

Jack