Intonation

[Brian T. Williams]

Hi,

I have recently bought a Guild GAD F20, amazing guitar for the money, and everything I was looking for in a small bodied instrument. However, I have just discovered a design flaw that I missed before purchase. The guitar I gather is based on a "vintage" design and has a straight bridge saddle, that is it sits at 90 degrees to all six strings and has no compensation angle to allow for correct intonation; (ok, so I missed this at point of sale)!! The bottom strings (particularly the 5th. & 6th) are way sharp past the ninth fret. I string with regular Martin 80/20 bronze 12-54; neck relief seems correct; string clearance on the 6th. string at the 12th fret is 2.5mm

Re-routing the saddle slot is not an option as there is not enough room between the current saddle slot and the bridge pin to allow for the required adjustment (+/- 3/16" I believe) and to allow for the string break angle.

I am not a guitar technician, I'm simply a player who wants a guitar that is otherwise superb to play in tune past the ninth fret!!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

Cheers.................Brian

[Ian Barker]

This may be scant consolation, but you are not alone.  Check this link: http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f....  Why Guild should make such a fundamental design error beats me.

Apart from returning it, the only solution seems to be a new bridge, which is a job for a competent luthier. 

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

Hi Brian,

 

While I do not have your guitar in front of me, I've found some pictures on line. There looks to be some room to slant the saddle though you will end up with the low e string making close to a right angle bend once the saddle is moved. Assuming the saddle is not too tall, this shouldn't be a functional problem.

 

First attempt would be to reshape the saddle so the break is at the rear of the saddle. If this doesn't provide enough compensation, then I would fill the slot, convert the bridge to a more contemporary closed slot, and slant the saddle as much as necessary. The closed (blind) slot will provide more support and make it easier to adjust the action. If you're still dissatisfied, a new bridge can be made with the string holes farther back, but now you're talking about half the cost of the entire guitar.

 

Here is a link to Frank's article on "moving" the pin holes: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Bridges/Dr...

 

Needless to say "Frank is the man!"

 

Joshua

[David Collins]

I agree with Ian, in that short of returning the guitar, replacing the bridge and moving the pin holes, or recutting the saddle slot as close as you can get away with, you're kind of stuck with intonation problems. 

Yet another victim of the market placing fashion above function. Can you estimate roughly how many cents off the intonation is on the low E at the 12th fret?

[Brian T. Williams]

Thanks for the replies guys.

David, yes the low E is +/- 20 cents sharp at the 12th fret.

[David Collins]

That's quite a shame. An error of 20 cents at the 12th fret would require nearly .150" change in position of the saddle peak, no doubt well outside the range of the existing slot. 

If it's a new enough purchase to be within the range of returning it, I would certainly do so. If not, I would try to return it as defective anyway, as it could arguably be said to have a significant flaw in the design and construction which prevents it from meeting reasonable standards of function for which it was sold. That may be a tough one though, and your results may vary depending on where you bought it and how good a negotiator you are. 

If you end up stuck with it though, it's just going to require some major work to make it play in tune.

[Brian T. Williams]

Yes David, I think you're right. I am visiting the dealer tomorrow who have "in house" guitar technicians, but I am not very hopeful of a satisfactory conclusion; I have just re-profiled the top of the bridge saddle so that the break is at the very back at the 6th string, but this has only made a difference of 4/5 cents; it's still a good 15+ cents sharp.

Shame is, this is an otherwise fabulous instrument; the finish, playability and sound are truly superb.

[Brian T. Williams]

So........after visiting the dealer from whom I bought the guitar, a close inspection showed that it was clear the instrument would need MAJOR surgery to play in tune; removing bridge, filling bridge pin holes, replace new bridge (cut properly) etc. etc.............new guitar?? no thank you!!

David's right.... fashion before function but strictly, I should have spotted the fault at point of sale; don't know how I didn't!

Anyway, I negotiated a deal where they took the guitar back and I bought a Takamine, bit larger body than the Guild but plays in tune beautifully all up the neck.

I contacted Guild three days ago about this and as yet, have had no reply!!..........guitar that doesn't play in tune, poor customer service; SHAME ON YOU GUILD!!

Thanks for the replies guys it IS appreciated...............sorry for the rant but at least I'm sorted now!!

[David Collins]

I think many dealers could have said something like - "It's modeled after a vintage styling that comes with limitations which should have been obvious when you bought it - sorry, but we didn't do anything wrong or dishonest, and you'll have to take it up with Fender/Guild." 

 

I'm glad it worked out for you, and it sounds like your dealer certainly stepped up to do the honorable thing. It is a shame that some manufacturers make choices which harm functional quality in favor of styling, often leaving buyers being completely unaware of the compromise until it's too late. This is but one example of this among many in this field though. 

[Paul Verticchio]

Good dealer.  Most independent MI dealers bend over backwards to keep their customers happy.  Although it's just a great business practice, I like to think that they're also doing it to counteract the miserable experiences "those not in the know" have have at the big box behemoths.

I encourage you to write (not e-mail) FMIC (Fender Musical Instruments Corp.)/Guild and let them know about your experience.  The dealer should also relay that info through his FMIC rep.

I'm aware that independent retailers are struggling to stay in business and that the dealer may just put the gtr back in stock as a demo or used, and not "make waves".  That's why you should write to FMIC.

As strange as it seems, if people & dealers aren't complaining DIRECTLY to the home office, they may be unaware of the issue.

But then again, they just might not care.  Remember, this is the same bunch that still puts 3 barrel saddles on $5+K Tele's...just because that's the way it was done back in the day....before we all got smarter about such things. Oh well, 3 properly intonated strings out of 6 ain't bad.  Wait...YES IT IS!!!!!!!

Best of luck and the next time you see your dealer, give him a kudos from me (:

[Brian T. Williams]

Hi Paul, I totally agree with you; however the dealer charged me a "usage fee" of 10% and indicated that he will indeed be re-selling the guitar as an ex-demo model. Guild I suppose, would argue that the instrument is a "replica" of a previously issued "vintage" instrument, bad intonation and all; and that it's up to the buyer to properly scrutinise the guitar before purchase. Like you I think it's a disgrace that in this day and age they can issue a guitar that doesn't play in tune!! As I said the shame is, it is otherwise a truly superb instrument!!

[Grahame Myers]

Paul

Thought this might interest you, as I find the vintage barrel saddles have a better tone and more sustain than the later saddles, but with the terrible intonation problems that you mention. There is a solution to the problem though, where you get the best of both worlds: Vintage tone and sustain, and correct intonation. Available from Goeldo here in Germany: Harmonic Bridge saddles. The threads for the screws are drilled at an angle instead of straight. Look at the picture and you'll see what I mean. Works perfectly, and looks way cool!

 

[Paul Verticchio]

Hi Grahame.

Thanks for the tip.  I've been installing those types of "correct" saddles for many, many years.  Fender itself even offers them as an aftermarket accessory, so I know they have access to them. I've seen 3rd party vendors offer them in brass, steel & titanium. A perfectly simple solution that works perfectly.

My statement was simply a sarcastic editorial on what I consider a confusing state of affairs in guitar marketing & design.  I guess a good analogy would be:

"Yes folks, here it is: A perfect period correct reproduction of the internationally renown and highly collectible 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air. 

True to it's vintage specifications, it lacks the following features; no power steering, no power brakes, no radial tuned suspension, no computer assisted engine. That's right, it lacks scores of other conveniences and those pesky advances in modern engineering.

Like it's vintage namesake,  it has no safety features such as air bags, seat belts and of course, no safety glass.

Vintage enthusiasts will love the skull busting metal dash (perfect for displaying your vintage magnetic religions icon statuettes), the rough ride, the lousy gas mileage, the tube powered AM radio with it's glorious monaural 4" x 6" speaker as well as  it's most famous & desirable feature: the sofa sized back seat."

Make this historic road warrior, and  one of the most well loved classic automobiles of all time, yours today from the General Motors Custom Shop for a mere $125,000."

Order yours today and let your kid stand in the middle of the front seat while you drive.  You too can relive all the carnage, trauma and gore of a good old fashioned 'Hey Ma, look. Junior just went through the windshield and I have a steering wheel where my heart used to be" classic family moment'. "

I know, they'd sell hundreds worldwide and folks would then spend half of the selling price making it street legal.

I'd like to see Fender start installing the slanted intonateable saddles as a stock item and let the anal masses change them to vintage spec if they absolutely  MUST play out of tune in order to be "vintage suave".  That way, at least you'd have a well functioning guitar right out of the case.

Brian....

I'm sorry to hear about the restocking fee.  I bet that's based on economic realities and not the dealers "gut reaction". I'd suggest that he add "caveat emptor" style signage above the Guilds stating exactly what you & David indicated. 

'What?', they say? It would kill the sales of those reproductions? 

How dare we call out the 'legacy' manufacturers who are turning out massive amounts of "WTF" instruments?   Maybe we should start, eh?

As I see it, the core magic of vintage instruments is the wood with which they were constructed, NOT the visual aesthetics.  That's why "real players" spend hundreds/thousands of $$$ to rehabilitate their prized pieces (including correcting poor intonation) as opposed to spending much less for a vintage spec reproduction.

BTW: if vintage specs are so darned important, why aren't these instruments strung with .015 - .062 high copper content strings? 

Oh ya....and why aren't "historically accurate" repro LP's, Strat's & Tele's strung with heavy gauge strings that include a wound G-string?  Why don't reissue Jaguars & Jazzmasters come with heavy gauge flatwounds?

I mean, you gotta go 'all in' with the vintage specs or you're just marketing B.S. (;

It's a sad state of affairs my friends. And now on to happier discussions......

Very kindest regards,

Paul